Building a Franchise: Kyrie Irving or Russell Westbrook

[QUOTE=RoundMoundOfReb]You don't get charity points for being short. either your good or your not. it's like saying "yeah but westbrook is more athletic than those 3 guys so he doesn't count"....and im pretty sure both oscar and magic would average higher rebounds than WB pace adjusted..[/QUOTE]

Those guys are the exception, not the norm. If Lebron played PG would you compare him to other 6 foot PGs and demand they get as many rebounds as him? Oscar, Magic, Lebron, these are point-forwards with clear advantages over shorter players. They are not your typical "point guards". Still I already said they are better than Westbrook at rebounding, but Westbrook is still ONE of the best.

I don't even know what your point is, is Westbrook the best rebounding PG of all time? Definitely not. Is he ONE of the best though? Most likely yes.

[QUOTE=RoundMoundOfReb]He's not "One of the GOATs"...there have been PGs clearly better than him at rebounding...[/QUOTE]

Yes and there have been people better than Kobe at scoring but he's still one of the best scorers ever.

[QUOTE=RoundMoundOfReb]He's not "One of the GOATs"...there have been PGs clearly better than him at rebounding...[/QUOTE]
I think you need to learn the difference between "one of" and "the". It's not limited to 2-3 people. Those lists usually have 5-10 players. Unless you also apply the same logic to every list and only have 3 basketball players in your greatest players of all time list.

[QUOTE=Graviton]Those guys are the exception, not the norm. If Lebron played PG would you compare him to other 6 foot PGs and demand they get as many rebounds as him? Oscar, Magic, Lebron, these are point-forwards with clear advantages over shorter players. They are not your typical "point guards". Still I already said they are better than Westbrook at rebounding, but Westbrook is still ONE of the best.

I don't even know what your point is, is Westbrook the best rebounding PG of all time? Definitely not. Is he ONE of the best though? Most likely yes.[/QUOTE]

Well if Lebron played PG and rebounded like he does now then yeah he'd be a better....just like if lebron played pg and averaged 5 tos i wouldn't give the "but he's big so it's harder to dribble" excuse...you are what you are...you don't get charity points for being smaller..

if we are going by that argument then you'd have to concede that guys shorter than WB like 6'1 rondo and bledsoe are better rebounders than him..

there are like 2 point guards in the league you could argue are better than him at rebounding...(MCW, Rondo)..i could probably come up with like 15-20 guards since 1990 that are debatable with him..you can't do the same with Kobe and scoring...

[QUOTE=RoundMoundOfReb]Well if Lebron played PG and rebounded like he does now then yeah he'd be a better....just like if lebron played pg and averaged 5 tos i wouldn't give the "but he's big so it's harder to dribble" excuse...you are what you are...you don't get charity points for being smaller..

if we are going by that argument then you'd have to concede that guys shorter than WB like 6'1 rondo and bledsoe are better rebounders than him..[/QUOTE]
There is a reason why people use things like "pound for pound" to rank fighters. For basketball players height is the most important factor. If they don't get charity points for being smaller then why are there even positions and different rankings for those positions? You can't just deny the importance of it.

1-2 inches aren't the deciding factor, but when you are tyring to bring in a ****in 6'6 or 6'9 guy into debates about 6-6'2 point guards that's when you have to draw a line somewhere. These positions in NBA are mainly decided by height for a reason.

[QUOTE=Graviton]There is a reason why people use things like "pound for pound" to rank fighters. For basketball players height is the most important factor. If they don't get charity points for being smaller then why are there even positions and different rankings for those positions? You can't just deny the importance of it.

1-2 inches aren't the deciding factor, but when you are tyring to bring in a ****in 6'6 or 6'9 guy into debates about 6-6'2 point guards that's when you have to draw a line somewhere. These positions in NBA are mainly decided by height for a reason.[/QUOTE]
:oldlol:

Fighters fight in different weight classes that's why there is a "pound 4 pound"...never will you here somebody use the weight argument to rank pound 4 pound within a weight class...There is no midget league for basketball they all play the same game

and Oscar is listed 6'5 - Westbrook 6'3 and Rondo and Bledsoe 6'1

[QUOTE=RoundMoundOfReb]:oldlol:

Fighters fight in different weight classes that's why there is a "pound 4 pound"...never will you here somebody use the weight argument to rank pound 4 pound within a weight class...There is no midget league for basketball they all play the same game

and Oscar is listed 6'5 - Westbrook 6'3 and Rondo and Bledsoe 6'1[/QUOTE]

You don't see 7 footers playing PG or 6 footers playing center, they are separated by height, I wonder why. If Shaq played PG would you be debating his rebounding vs Magic's? Lebron can play PG easily, but when people try to compare him to past greats they do to other gifted 6'8+ players like Magic, Bird, Dominique, Pippen. You never hear people arguing Lebron vs Steve Nash.

Oscar is probably better, not sure about Rondo and Bledsoe. Westbrook is still one of the GOATs though.

[QUOTE=Graviton]You don't see 7 footers playing PG or 6 footers playing center, they are separated by height, I wonder why. If Shaq played PG would you be debating his rebounding vs Magic's? Lebron can play PG easily, but when people try to compare him to past greats they do to other gifted 6'8+ players like Magic, Bird, Dominique, Pippen. You never hear people arguing Lebron vs Steve Nash.
[/QUOTE]

Ok let's say Shaq did play PG (would obvs be a disaster) BUT that doesn't mean that he wouldn't be the goat rebounding PG...doesn't matter how tall/short you are..

Your argument is essentially this: If shaq were playing PG and was turning the ball over a lot and i said "shaq is one of the best ball handling PG's ever" and then you said "he isn't" and i responded with "but compared to other 7 foot PGs he's the GOAT"

Obviously an exaggeration but that in essence is what your saying...that we should grade players who play the same position on a different scale because of height...it's illogical

More examples:

It's the equivalent of saying "Westbrook isn't that good at rebounding because he's just really athletic" or "Jason Kidd is not good at rebounding because he just had great instincts"...it makes no sense...it doesn't matter [B]what[/B] allows you to be a great rebounder whether it's height, weight, athleticism. box-out ability, instincts w.e....

it's like when people say Carmelo is the best scorer in the league because he's the most "skilled"

[QUOTE=RoundMoundOfReb]Ok let's say Shaq did play PG (would obvs be a disaster) BUT that doesn't mean that he wouldn't be the goat rebounding PG...doesn't matter how tall/short you are..

Your argument is essentially this: If shaq were playing PG and was turning the ball over a lot and i said "shaq is one of the best ball handling PG's ever" and then you said "he isn't" and i responded with "but compared to other 7 foot PGs he's the GOAT"

Obviously an exaggeration but that in essence is what your saying...that we should grade players who play the same position on a different scale because of height...it's illogical

More examples:

It's the equivalent of saying "Westbrook isn't that good at rebounding because he's just really athletic" or "Jason Kidd is not good at rebounding because he just had great instincts"...it makes no sense...it doesn't matter [B]what[/B] allows you to be a great rebounder whether it's height, weight, athleticism. box-out ability, instincts w.e....

it's like when people say Carmelo is the best scorer in the league because he's the most "skilled"[/QUOTE]



But there is a difference when you compare him to anomalies. Magic/Lebron have point guards skills in a forward's body. People use the term "point-forward" for them afterall. They are unique, not typical PGs.

You can compare Westbrook to any other PG, just not someone 6 inches taller. PGs for me are the shortest guys on the floor, the ones who have to fight the hardest in a game of giants. Magic was not of those guys, even if he played the position.

I think you see positions as just letters, while I see it as the player's "weight class", where they belong and what they are supposed to be. Same way certain posters say Duncan is a center and not a PF when people call him "the greatest PF of all time". I guess we can agree to disagree.

[QUOTE=Graviton]But there is a difference when you compare him to anomalies. Magic/Lebron have point guards skills in a forward's body. People use the term "point-forward" for them afterall. They are unique, not typical PGs. [/QUOTE]
Magic is almost always called a "point guard" and i never brought up 'bron...you did

[QUOTE]You can compare Westbrook to any other PG, just not someone 6 inches taller. PGs for me are the shortest guys on the floor, the ones who have to fight the hardest in a game of giants. Magic was not of those guys, even if he played the position.[/QUOTE]

Except Magic [B]is[/B] a point guard...being the shortest on the court has nothing to do with being the point guard...even bball reference (which almost always lists players at their position by height) has magic as a PG...that's how clearly defined his role was

[QUOTE]I think you see positions as just letters, while I see it as the player's "weight class", where they belong and what they are supposed to be. Same way certain posters say Duncan is a center and not a PF when people call him "the greatest PF of all time". I guess we can agree to disagree.[/QUOTE]

Okay if you want to go by the "weight class" argument (even though that's completely switching up the debate and what i took issue with) then we can name 10s and 10s of 2-guards in the 6-1 - 6-5 range who were better or at least close to as good rebounders than Westbrook..

Now that LBJ is back in CLE I hope opinions have not changed about Kyrie's current and potential skills and talents. Let's review some of the responses:
[QUOTE=SilkkTheShocker]He [Westbrook] has also proven to be mentally r.etarded. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=SilkkTheShocker]Kyrie is undersized? He is like 6'3.

And I guarantee if he was playing with KD, he will be doing his best to get him the ball. Not trying to chuck jumpers depite being a vastly inferior scorer to KD[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=SilkkTheShocker]You can also count on Westbrick to do something incredibly stupid whenever he tries to takeover. Talented player, but his basketball IQ is extremely low. He honestly might be one of the dumbest players in the league.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=SilkkTheShocker]You don't think OKC is a title contender with Kyrie and Durant? That team would be insanely hard to defend, especially in the clutch. Teams dare Westbrick to takeover. They actually hope for it.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=SilkkTheShocker]Replace Irving with Westbrick and the Cavs still are terrible. They also would have almost no one to spread the floor with Westbrick.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=SilkkTheShocker]Easily. You get the best player in the NBA and the best shooting PG in the NBA not named Curry/Nash. Not to mention Kyrie is an absolute beast in the 4th quarter.[/QUOTE]

Right now I would say Westbrook. I view both as score first PG's, but Westbrook's all around game is the deciding factor right now. The thing with Westbrook if he continues to improve his passing and floor generalship, he could be like a freak athletic version of Gary Payton. In the all around sense, it doesn't get better than GP! Russell has the ability to eclipse that IF he improves those PG facets! But Kyrie has a ton of upside and a better scoring skillset.