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[QUOTE=tpols]The guy I quoted said hed take Durant because 'Dirk has never been a top 2 player'. But Durant would not have been considered top 2 either had he been in his prime when Dirk was.:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
To which I agree. "Durant would be a borderline top 10 between 01-06" or whatever you said is flat out ridiculous.
[QUOTE=moe94]To which I agree. "Durant would be a borderline top 10 between 01-06" or whatever you said is flat out ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
Prob is ridiculous, but interesting:
Kobe
Duncan
Shaq
Garnett
Dirk
LeBron
McGrady
Yao
Iverson
Wade
Kidd
Carter
Pierce
Elton Brand
Jermain O'Neal
Ray Allen
Where would Durant be ranked?
[QUOTE=moe94]To which I agree. "Durant would be a borderline top 10 between 01-06" or whatever you said is flat out ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
Yea I exxagerated.:oldlol: Top 6-7ish more like it.. just like Dirk. Although I'd take Dirk over Durant just from watching them. Dirk plays straight to win the game. Everything he does is motivated by it. Durant is kinda in the same mold as Lebron where hes trying to get his efficiency perfect almost to a fault. Which is why he can average 31 on 50+% in the Finals and still get demolished.
[QUOTE=branslowski]Prob is ridiculous, but interesting:
Kobe
Duncan
Shaq
Garnett
Dirk
LeBron
McGrady
Yao
Iverson
Wade
Kidd
Carter
Pierce
Elton Brand
Jermain O'Neal
Ray Allen
Where would Durant be ranked?[/QUOTE]
Tier 1
Shaq/Duncan/Kobe/LeBron
Tier 2
Nowitzki/Garnett
Tier 3
Wade/McGrady(healthy)/Durant/Kidd
Although you can make a case for Wade being a Tier 2.
[QUOTE=Odinn]Tier 1
Shaq/Duncan/Kobe/LeBron
Tier 2
Nowitzki/Garnett
Tier 3
Wade/McGrady(healthy)/Durant/Kidd
Although you can make a case for Wade being a Tier 2.[/QUOTE]
From 01-06?
Tier 1: Kobe/Shaq/Duncan/KG
Tier 2: Iverson/Kidd/Pierce/Dirk/Webber/Durant/T Mac
Tier 3:Allen/O'Neal/Sheed/Wade/Carter
So I'm seeing Durant being ranked 8-10 best player between 01-06' by posters....Still means borderline top 10?..
Dirk beat the Heatles
[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]From 01-06?
Tier 1: Kobe/Shaq/Duncan/KG
Tier 2: Iverson/Kidd/Pierce/Dirk/Webber/Durant/T Mac
Tier 3:Allen/O'Neal/Sheed/Wade/Carter[/QUOTE]
Yeah this is more like it. Odinn has severe KG issues..
Shoot. I didn't realize that was about '01-'06 span. I just ranked them while thinking their proven bests.
There were at that span, we had more than 2 potential all-time greats(more like top 20-25 ever) in their early or late prime or even peak. There isn't a this weak span in the history as for top 20-25 candidates. And Durant taking advantage of it.
It is kinda ridiculous getting criticized by the poster that claimed once KG was on the same level as a scorer with Moses Malone.:roll: And he agrees with a Kobe stan that put Shaq to in his Tier 3 while Shaq being a 25/11 guy in that span. Great job ISH.:roll:
[QUOTE=Odinn]Shoot. I didn't realize that was about '01-'06 span. I just ranked them while thinking their proven bests.
There were at that span, we had more than 2 potential all-time greats(more like top 20-25 ever) in their early or late prime or even peak. There isn't a this weak span in the history as for top 20-25 candidates. And Durant taking advantage of it.
It is kinda ridiculous getting criticized by the poster that claimed once KG was on the same level as a scorer with Moses Malone.:roll: And [B]he agrees with a Kobe stan that put Shaq to in his Tier 3 w[/B]hile Shaq being a 25/11 guy in that span. Great job ISH.:roll:[/QUOTE]
Keep emberassing yourself
[QUOTE=Patrick Chewing]Dirk beat the Heatles[/QUOTE]
True, but he did have future DPOY Chandler in the middle, and Jason Terry's hot hand (18 ppg and 40% from the arc). Dirk was amazing that series, but like all Champs, he had some help.
[QUOTE=Odinn]
It is kinda ridiculous getting criticized by the poster that claimed once KG was on the same level as a scorer with Moses Malone.:roll: And he agrees with a Kobe stan that put Shaq to in his Tier 3 while Shaq being a 25/11 guy in that span. Great job ISH.:roll:[/QUOTE]
I said KG was a more versatile scorer and in the playoffs there wasn't that much of a difference in playoff scoring in their prime. They shot practically the same percentage with Moses being at point blank range. KG was much better defender, a much better passer, a much better decision maker and much better defensive rebounder.
But they were both probably the two best go-hard taller superstars in the game. When the M&M train came even Kareem had to side step.
[QUOTE=Odinn]Shoot. I didn't realize that was about '01-'06 span. I just ranked them while thinking their proven bests.
There were at that span, we had more than 2 potential all-time greats(more like top 20-25 ever) in their early or late prime or even peak. There isn't a this weak span in the history as for top 20-25 candidates. [B]And Durant taking advantage of it.[/B]
It is kinda ridiculous getting criticized by the poster that claimed once KG was on the same level as a scorer with Moses Malone.:roll: And he agrees with a Kobe stan that put Shaq to in his Tier 3 while Shaq being a 25/11 guy in that span. Great job ISH.:roll:[/QUOTE]
You say that like Durant hasn't already shown, barring some sort of injury or unforeseeable fall-off in ability, he's going to be a top 25 player all-time.
It still seems like people aren't properly appreciating just how good Durant is right now. For starters, he's actually a good defender at this point in his career, and I think some people still have some misconceptions about his defense based on the 2012 Finals or any season from his rookie season through 2012; but he's actually developed into a damn good defensive player. Not saying he's elite or great or anything but, at the very least, he's now a positive impact player on defense. So, on top of that, you've got a SF in the midst of a 2-year peak looking like he's going to average something like 28-8-5-1-1 on nearly 50/40/90 shooting and 60%+ TS while being the best player on one of the best teams in the league. Not to mention he's a player who elevates his game in the playoffs which makes him even more special.
I've actually said in the past on here that I think this is a very weak era for top end talent, but Durant is absolutely a player who would be, at the very least, top 10 in every era, and top 3-5 at plenty of other random times throughout NBA history. I think the best way to figure it out would be to take 2013 or 2014 Durant and go year by year and figure out where he'd rank in 2005, then 2006, then 2007, etc.
[QUOTE=Pointguard]You are totally right Micku
Wow, Dirk was averaging 23/7/2.6 and was somehow top three in the league??? This is [B]revisionist history[/B] if I am ever hearing it. Those numbers are not even one dimensional superstar numbers. DH was 23 and 14 along with being defensive player of the year. DH was definitely a step down from Lebron and Wade. All three were great in at least three areas of the game and scored definitively better than Dirk, ok not DH. All three made all defensive teams.
Kobe was 25/5/5.
And Dirk wasn't winning big games and 4 quarter games during the regular season like Rose who scored more and had more assist than Dirk had rebounds. Rose scored more, dominated his position, won more with a new injured team. His team dominated the elite teams. Durant had practically equal rebound numbers as Dirk and scored 4 more points per game for the league lead.
Its amazing how people are now bending things to suite Dirk. When Wade does one of the greatest finals ever when he demolished Dirk, and had WAAAAAAY better numbers during the [B]RS[/B] and [B]Finals[/B] and was a top SG defender, he wasn't the best player in the league the next year, in fact most people didn't even have him second or third. But Dirk can be mysterious be the best when Wade and Lebron are in their prime with Dirk's game fallen off with garbage numbers and pathetic defense during the RS.
Its just hilarious.[/QUOTE]
When you lead the 11 Mavs roster.....and a season ending injury one to a key player...and your team goes 2-7 without you...to 57 wins...
And then are easily the best player when the games matter more en route to the title. Yea...you have an argument for the best player in the league?
How can anyone say Lebron or Wade were better than Dirk in 11? They had the best team and Dirk beat them...LOL...and Dirk led his team to 1 less win in a much tougher conference with a worse team?
Howard is the only player in 11 that has an argument over Dirk...and the playoffs from Dirk trump that
Did you really just list Kobe over Dirk in 11? It's not even debatable.
ISH...where meaningless regular season games trump the games that actually matter.
It's just beyond comical at this point. stop focusing on meaningless regular season games against shit competition. If you really think Dirk would be a better player because he played a few more minutes per game agains the worst teams in the league throughout his career...you really need to rethink how you evaluate player.
And if you are going to use regular season stats so much...at least look at the true impact of Dirk. Again...57 wins despite missing his teammates to injury quite a lot throughout the year. And the team going 2-7 without him.
And....his on court impact.
Improved the offense 10.1 points per 100 possessions
Improved the defense 6 points per 100 possessions
Combined +16
I don't even have to look. I know that is better than Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Durant, Rose, and Howard in the regular season. but you'll avoid those facts like the plague and focus on how often the other guys stayed in to beat the bobcats by 20 instead of 12.
So lets get this straight. Dirk played pathetic defense....yet he improved his teams defense 6 points per 100 possessions. While he played...the Mavs had a solid 103 defensive rating. Yet you take Rose over Dirk...and say nothing about defense. Rose's team got 7.4 points worse on defense per 100 possessions when Rose was in the game. When Rose was on the floor...they had a 102.2 defensive rating in 11...barely better than the Dirk led Mavs...hahaahah. Don't you hate facts? And Rose was playing with better defenders than Dirk was. That's the sick part of it...
As for the clutch stuff. Dirk averaged 32/8/4 on 63.4% TS in crunch time in 2011 per 36 minutes. The Mavs went 32-13 in games that entered crunch time.
Rose averaged 36/8/7 on 52.9% TS in crunch time in 2011 per 36 minutes. The Bulls went 31-12 in games that entered crunch time.
Really...Dirk wasn't winning close games in the 4th qtr? Again...don't you hate facts? Of course you won't care about a 10.5% TS difference that is enormous, but Dirk was easily as good or better than Rose last in games.
You just really need to start putting more emphasis on the playoffs. Especially if you are going to take Kobe, Rose, Durant...over Dirk in 2011 overall. I swear...I haven't even seen you mention the playoffs when comparing a player....like ever. Why? Do you not agree that the playoffs matter more? I mean...do you think Kevin Love is better than prime Dirk?
I guess if you are a KG stan you have to greatly value production in the regular season on bad teams, but you take it to the extremes...
[QUOTE=KG215]You say that like Durant hasn't already shown, barring some sort of injury or unforeseeable fall-off in ability, he's going to be a top 25 player all-time.
It still seems like people aren't properly appreciating just how good Durant is right now. For starters, he's actually a good defender at this point in his career, and I think some people still have some misconceptions about his defense based on the 2012 Finals or any season from his rookie season through 2012; but he's actually developed into a damn good defensive player. Not saying he's elite or great or anything but, at the very least, he's now a positive impact player on defense. So, on top of that, you've got a SF in the midst of a 2-year peak looking like he's going to average something like 28-8-5-1-1 on nearly 50/40/90 shooting and 60%+ TS while being the best player on one of the best teams in the league. Not to mention he's a player who elevates his game in the playoffs which makes him even more special.
[B]I've actually said in the past on here that I think this is a very weak era for top end talent,[/B] but Durant is absolutely a player who would be, at the very least, top 10 in every era, and top 3-5 at plenty of other random times throughout NBA history. I think the best way to figure it out would be to take 2013 or 2014 Durant and go year by year and figure out where he'd rank in 2005, then 2006, then 2007, etc.[/QUOTE]
That was my point. Since it's all relative comparisons, it is truly important what's related to it.
Let me ask you something then. I think 2002-03 would be more accurate instead of 2005-2007 span.
Where would you rank 2012-13 Durant if he played in 2002-03 season?
Pretty select company as his competitors there.
Tim Duncan at his absolute best.
Shaq was a little bit out of shape but still 27/12/3/2 guy.
Kobe Bryant entered his prime. (although you can claim he did in 2000-01)
Nowitzki, too. If he wasn't injured the Mavs could keep their NBA Finals dream alive. (it'd be ignorant to say the Mavs would win it all if there wasn't the injury. Before Dirk going down, the Spurs were leading 2-1 and Duncan was dominating the series)
T-Mac had his best season.
KG had one of his best seasons as well.
C-Webb went down but he was on his form.
It was Kidd's highest scoring season and playoff. Also he led the league in apg once more.
Calling C-Webb and Kidd potential top 25 ever is a bit optimistic but as for top talents, it was one of the best season I've ever witnessed.