Dunking Data For 1988-1993: MJ is the Goat In-Game Dunker for Wing Players

One more thing...

Some of MJ's dunks didn't look as ferocious because the rims didn't give as much as they do today.

The spring support system that's included in today's rims (thanks to Shaq) gives more, so the bending of the rim gives the illusion of the dunk being more powerful.

[QUOTE=andgar923]One last thing that's perhaps unique to MJ.

His ability to 'adjust' while in the air.

I can't think of too many dunkers that can adjust while in the air. He'd be up in the air and shift his body to an angle entirely while cocking the ball back. Again, this is while in the air, not before takeoff or during takeoff. He'd jump up and switch hands (which isn't so rare) but also move the ball away from defenders at the same time. I've seen people do both of those, but I can't think of too many instances in which people have done these things at the same time. At least not as often as he has.

He's shifted his body and pumped the ball while in the air to avoid double teams. Re-read... to avoid double teams while in the air.

He's been hit while in the air so his body shifts, yet he still pumps the ball with one hand and dunks it.

Maybe somebody will post a gif or link of somebody doing that once or twice, but not as many as MJ and not with the combinations of actions that I posted. Closest I think of right now is Blake Griffin with some of the stuff.[/QUOTE]I think it depends upon exactly what you're talking about here. For instance, Dominique Wilkins used to shift his body and bring the ball down near his waist upon contact at the rim on a pretty regular basis as well. His flush over Lanier is the one that tends to linger most heavily, but it was relatively habitual.

The Lanier Dunk: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FIDpHIJvX8[/url]

Wilkins' Top 100 (Great watch regardless of discussion): [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9lexzZxi34[/url]

Vince Carter also had a solid ability to react late, after he'd already taken off. Here's a mediocre one around Boris Diaw: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv63I0kCrFw[/url]

If we're talking about Jordan's palming ability and how he'd shift the rock that way, then yeah, he'll be unique and in rare company (alongside Julius Erving in that regard) as they're two of the few who could hold the ball in such a manner.

[QUOTE=andgar923]One more thing...

Some of MJ's dunks didn't look as ferocious because the rims didn't give as much as they do today.

The spring support system that's included in today's rims (thanks to Shaq) gives more, so the bending of the rim gives the illusion of the dunk being more powerful.[/QUOTE]Actually, not to be contrarian, but I believe a lot of Jordan's dunks didn't look as ferocious because of the aforementioned palming ability of his. On dunks where he palms from the get-go and more or less Statue of Liberty's, the hand-rim interaction is going to be a little bit weaker versus the time where he winds up or cocks back. Super palm dunks end up being more of a wrist-flick and hand throw whereas non-palms tend to introduce an entire arm motion.

I can rarely palm a basketball but when I can, dunking becomes 10 times easier and thus quite a bit more frequent. However, the trade off is my palm dunks look much weaker, since they feel more like I'm just rising my hand up and plopping it in. When I can't palm, my dunks must be full body motions, more or less.

Moreover, breakaway rims have been in place in the NBA since around 1981. And until '94ish, teams did not all have the same support systems (they just had to meet certain standards - like being breakaway). So some rims actually broke away easier back then (New Jersey comes to mind - and I'm talking about the rim bending as needed, not literally breaking, which New Jersey's was also good at). Most broke away very similarly to today's rims with the Clippers sometimes being a rare exception (look at the rim on the last two LaPhonso jams: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nklwby0JDic[/url])

[QUOTE=mehyaM24][IMG]http://www.tuxboard.com/photos/2013/03/LeBron-James-Dunk-Jason-Terry.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lyo4paS2bY1qkz2y2.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/LeBron-James-Dunk-Over-Damon-Jones.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/.element/media/2.0/teamsites/heat/images/131220-jamesdunk.gif[/IMG]

lebron's chest dunks are GOAT, but look at his best posters. the dunk over john lucas = FEAR[/QUOTE]

Why does this dude keep posting gifs of Bron running to the basket unimpeded and dunking on Midgets? :confusedshrug:

Lucas is 5'11" for ****ssake :facepalm

[QUOTE=3ball]The shifts in the number of dunks from year to year are too significant for athleticism or prevalence to be the cause - and the stat shifts the wrong way, like it did in between 1999 and 2001, when dunks went back down to earlier levels..

The decline of dunks between 1999 and 2001 shows that we don't have enough data yet - it's possible that it works in cycles where defenses catch up to offensive strategy or vice versa over a period of time, and this could be affecting the dunking frequency - that would explain why dunks went back down between 1999 and 2001... dunking appears to be creeping back down now as well, as it did pretty materially in 2010 too.

I think the NBA would agree that dunking frequency each year is mostly a factor of rule changes and style of play, since they have changed the rules over the years specifically so there would be less physicality and more dunks.
-[/QUOTE]
Entirely possible, and maybe even likely. I just need to watch more tape from 87-88 through 91-92 since I wasn't watching live then, and look closely at the defense played.

Regarding 99, 00, 01, it could just be noise in the data. Or it could be something more meaningful.

Just note that I'm not disagreeing with you, I just think that this is amazing new information we have, and we need to be very thorough in doing our due-diligence here.

Something that might be interesting is maybe comparing players' dunks by positions, and seeing if over time, there were big changes in wings vs bigs, etc.

[QUOTE=Rake2204]I think it depends upon exactly what you're talking about here. For instance, Dominique Wilkins used to shift his body and bring the ball down near his waist upon contact at the rim on a pretty regular basis as well. His flush over Lanier is the one that tends to linger most heavily, but it was relatively habitual.

The Lanier Dunk: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FIDpHIJvX8[/url]

Wilkins' Top 100 (Great watch regardless of discussion): [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9lexzZxi34[/url]

Vince Carter also had a solid ability to react late, after he'd already taken off. Here's a mediocre one around Boris Diaw: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv63I0kCrFw[/url]

If we're talking about Jordan's palming ability and how he'd shift the rock that way, then yeah, he'll be unique and in rare company (alongside Julius Erving in that regard) as they're two of the few who could hold the ball in such a manner.[/QUOTE]

By shifting his body I mistyped.

What I meant to say was he changed trajectory while in the air. So if he was going in a straight line, all of a sudden his entire body moved to the side, not just a portion like the Nique vids.

I've seen a handful of players do that here and there, yet not as often as MJ. My fav example that best illustrates that is the dunk vs the Pistons (it's in the link I posted somewhere). He jumps up with his body going one way, and as the Pistons' entire front court jump to block him (well... almost entire front court), he shifts his body to the side slightly. Not just his upper body, but entire body turns into an angle. He pumps the ball in the air and dunks it.

Naturally, that hasn't been the only time he's done something like that.

As I said before, big men are afraid to jump with lebron. Dude strikes fear into their hearts like no other:oldlol: These same players with jump with Durant, Kobe,George but move out of the way with lebron:biggums:

Also, as I said before, Lebron has many dunks similar to the Jordan gifs posted in here if you look back at some of his older cavs footage from like his first 5 years. Lebron used to do more of those 1 handed palming the ball/Jordan-Dr J type dunks back then.


here goes lebron in traffic from the baseline with a more Dominque style dunk. Look at the raw athleticism and power in that play:eek: :eek:


[b]Lebron James MONSTER Dunk On the Mavericks 03-01-2007 [/b]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqD-JoDgKao&hd=1[/url]

[QUOTE=andgar923]By shifting his body I mistyped.

What I meant to say was he changed trajectory while in the air. So if he was going in a straight line, all of a sudden his entire body moved to the side, not just a portion like the Nique vids.

I've seen a handful of players do that here and there, yet not as often as MJ. My fav example that best illustrates that is the dunk vs the Pistons (it's in the link I posted somewhere). He jumps up with his body going one way, and as the Pistons' entire front court jump to block him (well... almost entire front court), he shifts his body to the side slightly. Not just his upper body, but entire body turns into an angle. He pumps the ball in the air and dunks it.

Naturally, that hasn't been the only time he's done something like that.[/QUOTE]Not to sound lazy (though it'll undoubtedly sound lazy) but can you reference the exact point in your links at which that occurs? I'd like to get a grasp on exactly what you are referring.

[QUOTE=Rake2204]I think it depends upon exactly what you're talking about here. For instance, Dominique Wilkins used to shift his body and bring the ball down near his waist upon contact at the rim on a pretty regular basis as well. His flush over Lanier is the one that tends to linger most heavily, but it was relatively habitual.

The Lanier Dunk: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FIDpHIJvX8[/url]

Wilkins' Top 100 (Great watch regardless of discussion): [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9lexzZxi34[/url]

Vince Carter also had a solid ability to react late, after he'd already taken off. Here's a mediocre one around Boris Diaw: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv63I0kCrFw[/url]

If we're talking about Jordan's palming ability and how he'd shift the rock that way, then yeah, he'll be unique and in rare company (alongside Julius Erving in that regard) as they're two of the few who could hold the ball in such a manner.

Actually, not to be contrarian, but I believe a lot of Jordan's dunks didn't look as ferocious because of the aforementioned palming ability of his. On dunks where he palms from the get-go and more or less Statue of Liberty's, the hand-rim interaction is going to be a little bit weaker versus the time where he winds up or cocks back. Super palm dunks end up being more of a wrist-flick and hand throw whereas non-palms tend to introduce an entire arm motion.

I can rarely palm a basketball but when I can, dunking becomes 10 times easier and thus quite a bit more frequent. However, the trade off is my palm dunks look much weaker, since they feel more like I'm just rising my hand up and plopping it in. When I can't palm, my dunks must be full body motions, more or less.

Moreover, breakaway rims have been in place in the NBA since around 1981. And until '94ish, teams did not all have the same support systems (they just had to meet certain standards - like being breakaway). So some rims actually broke away easier back then (New Jersey comes to mind - and I'm talking about the rim bending as needed, not literally breaking, which New Jersey's was also good at). Most broke away very similarly to today's rims with the Clippers sometimes being a rare exception (look at the rim on the last two LaPhonso jams: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nklwby0JDic[/url])[/QUOTE]

If you look at some of MJ's early dunks, he'd have the entire backboard shaking and the rim barely bends (at least compared to today's).

The give on the rims changed with Shaq.

So sure, there may have been breakaway rims but they changed the amount of give of threshold they gave, all thanks to Shaq.

Again... go watch some old footage, you'll see the ball bounce hard off the floor due to the power of the slam, you'll see the backboard shake.... but the rims didn't bend as much as today. Compare MJ's early dunks to some of his mid 90 dunks and you'll see how the rims bend more.

lol i've posted numerous poster dunks on kg, duncan, and ibaka. i just find these more aesthetic because lebron is literally clearing these players' torsos. ****ing insane.

[QUOTE=Rake2204]Not to sound lazy (though it'll undoubtedly sound lazy) but can you reference the exact point in your links at which that occurs? I'd like to get a grasp on exactly what you are referring.[/QUOTE]

Gotta go make breakfast :lol :lol

I'll try to do so later on if I have time. But there's at least 4 examples in that link.

You lost me at "Dunking Data" Somebody had the time to sit and watch every NBA player and count their counts? Wow :facepalm

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Those are some pretty impressive dunks by LeBron, though. [b]One thing I notice about his posters is that they're very Shaq-like.

Sheer power bulldozing anything in sight.[/b]

[/QUOTE]

Example below:oldlol:


[b]Lebron James With The And1 Breakaway Dunk[/b]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI1mAMTh4Pw&hd=1[/url]

straight trucked:lol

[QUOTE=andgar923]If you look at some of MJ's early dunks, he'd have the entire backboard shaking and the rim barely bends (at least compared to today's).

The give on the rims changed with Shaq.

So sure, there may have been breakaway rims but they changed the amount of give of threshold they gave, all thanks to Shaq.

Again... go watch some old footage, you'll see the ball bounce hard off the floor due to the power of the slam, you'll see the backboard shake.... but the rims didn't bend as much as today. Compare MJ's early dunks to some of his mid 90 dunks and you'll see how the rims bend more.[/QUOTE]I suppose I'd have to see some specific references of exactly which clips you're referring, for if you let me pick them out myself, they might not be what you're talking about (similar to my Nique and VC interpretation above).

I still generally maintain that a lot of Jordan's dunks could go through the rim hard due to his wrist flick but the rims may not bend as much on his jams because it's a wrist action more than a full arm endeavor, not to mention he often did not grab or pull the rim, even briefly.

For comparison, here are some Dominique Wilkins clips from the same era. Wilkins was a guy who I did not often see palm the ball on his dunks (if he ever did). His dunks were thus usually full arm explosions with slight pulls or grabs. They were dirty: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9lexzZxi34#t=8m45s[/url]

For Jordan, I think his Top Ten Dunks video serves as a good comparison piece: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79MQ4_r7QZM[/url]

At the 1:11 mark, Jordan executes something that was pretty rare for him - a one-hand dunk off two-feet with an extended rim hang. This leads to the rim breaking away and staying that way. His two foot takeoffs often led to more of an arm explosion versus his one-footed Statue of Liberty's.

His dunk at 2:10 is a standard Jordan Statue example. It's a good dunk, and it's 1997, but it's one where the arm rises and sits up there with the ball in his palm, then he flicks it down. The ball can go through quickly, but the arm-rim interaction is most often not violent.

A better example may be at 2:28, on the same rims Dominique punished throughout the 80's. Great dunk, powerful dunk, but it's mostly a wrist flick as opposed to being a full arm endeavor, so the rim doesn't respond in quite the same way as it did on countless Wilkins dunks throughout his time there.

[QUOTE=Hoopz2332]Example below:oldlol:


[b]Lebron James With The And1 Breakaway Dunk[/b]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI1mAMTh4Pw&hd=1[/url]

straight trucked:lol[/QUOTE]

wipe that cvm off your eyes then watch it again.

Surprised I haven't seen these two yet..

On Orlando Woolridge

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFlljgbC7Tc[/url]


There was a dunk in the 91 finals where he went chest to chest and dunked on Sam perkins. Someone post it if you have it.

Lebron is a 1 foot leaper. MJ could posterize you off one and two feet. MJ could dunk on you off two feet from further out compared to lebron. Both are explosive, but MJ has dunked on far more players.