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[QUOTE=DMAVS41]There are always going to be guys battling for a top 5 spot...and one can argue it.
Shaq was in that range of player though...still one of the best players in the league. I think that is what people mean...nobody actually is arguing, I'd guess, that 04/05 Shaq were as good as 00 Shaq or something.[/QUOTE]
That is what has to be implied if kobe just had to throw the ball to shaq more to win in 04 against t he pistons, at least that's what it sounds like.
[QUOTE=dhsilv]That is what has to be implied if kobe just had to throw the ball to shaq more to win in 04 against t he pistons, at least that's what it sounds like.[/QUOTE]
I don't think it would have mattered much throwing it to shaq more, or kobe somehow playing better.. tayshaun bothered kobe the same way Durant or sefolosha did in 2012. That super length to contest a midrange shooter is kobe's kryptonite. Plus if kobe was able to get around he would have to face a crowded, stacked paint.. just a terrible matchup. Combined with all the extracurricular stuff, there was just no chance. 04 pistons upsetting the lakers was like the seahawks beating the bronco's.. they just smashed them in the face and dominated at every non-star position first
[QUOTE=90sgoat]I should say that its hard to qualify who is actually the better player, because none of them have multiple rings or MVPs. Kidd is the only one with a ring and he has the most finals (3 to 1 and 0) which really should count for something. Besides that it's about which game you like to watch more and Kidd is on top for me, because all his teams were exciting to watch.
Again, I simply can't see how you can put Paul over either of the others when you factor in all skills and see Paul's lack of playoff success. Losing to the Rockets last year was a massive scratch on his resume. They beat the Spurs and then lose to Harden and Dwight, that's just not elite, whether it's mental or something else.
As for Kidd even as an old man he made Melo a scoring leader and in the running for MVP, which again was ignored but Melo's play since Kidd left shows the impact clearly. Kidd really does make his teammates play to their best.[/QUOTE]
Paul got injured against the spurs...not sure he gets a pass but I'll give him half of one.
Paul also never had a team as deep or talented as that 96 seatle team. That team was loaded.
FYI, Payton made the finals 3 times and has a ring just like Kidd....assuming you give him credit for being a much less important role player on 2 of those finals trips and the ring. But you didn't add a qualifier so it should be pointed out.
[QUOTE=tpols]I don't think it would have mattered much throwing it to shaq more, or kobe somehow playing better.. tayshaun bothered kobe the same way Durant or sefolosha did. That super length to contest a midrange shooter is kobe's kryptonite. Plus if able to get around having to face a crowded, stacked paint.. just a terrible matchup. Combined with all the extracurricular stuff, there was just no chance. 04 pistons upsetting the lakers was like the seahawks beating the bronco's.. they just smashed them in the face and dominated at every non-star position.[/QUOTE]
Agree. The pistons just destroyed the role players in ways you rarely ever see.
[QUOTE=90sgoat]I don't disrespect Paul, but here's the thing, it's about how many points your team score compared to how many they allow. Not how many points your point guard scores. It doesn't matter who scores as long as the points are scored.
Spurs don't even have a 20 point scorer, they have a couple of guys scoring 17.
Stackhouse, Gilbert Arenas, Melo, they score and their teams are crap.
And if Paul was really a top 3 point guard of all time then he would have sniffed a finals, all the other great point guards did:
Magic
Kidd
Stockton
Isiah Thomas
Oscar Robertson
Steve Nash had godly stats that didn't translate and he was twice MVP, no one in their mind picks Nash over any of the above.
He has the team good enough, they beat the former champs Spurs for gods sake. Then they go and meltdown and lose to James Harden.
There's something missing with Paul and you won't like it if I tell you what I think it is, but I will say it anyway, Paul is too focused on pick and roll game and taking the big shots. He dribbles in the same spot for too long and does too much iso. He flops too much, doesn't have the warrior's heart like Isiah and Stockton.
Losing to Rockets last year can't be excused it was simply bad and it falls on Paul who played great against Spurs.
He is still an all time great in terms of skill but he can't translate it to a fully effective playstyle.
Kidd has 107 tripple doubles, that's 3rd all time and that's more than TWICE as many Lebron James. Think about that. Kidd is 6'5'' and 205lbs. That's only behind Magic and Oscar Robertson ALL TIME.
People gush over the trip dub impact of Lebron, but Kidd has TWICE as many as Lebron.
He averages almost 9apg and 2spg over an 18 year career.
Jason Kidd won that Mavs championship:
wagesofwins.com/2011/05/26/jason-kidd-is-an-all-time-great-point-guard/
[url]http://nesn.com/2011/05/jason-kidd-must-be-considered-greatest-point-guard-in-nba-history-if-mavericks-win-championship/[/url]
Read more at: [url]http://nesn.com/2011/05/jason-kidd-must-be-considered-greatest-point-guard-in-nba-history-if-mavericks-win-championship/[/url]
[B]In the 2001-2002 against Lakers NBA finals Kidd averaged:
21-10-7-2 on 44% FG[/B]
That's an all time great Finals statline.
Let me know when Paul puts up such a statline in the finals.
You simply can't speak on behalf of Jason Kidd if you're not able to use your eyes and understand what you are seeing, like the guys I quoted above were able to.[/QUOTE]Let's not act like Dirk and the rest of the Mavs had nothing to do with that title in 2011. Kidd contributed alot to that team but he didn't win them that championship. He was 38 years old and at the end of his career. Let's be real.
I never said Paul was a top 3 PG all time (neither is Kidd). There's also nothing wrong with picking Nash over Stockton, Kidd, or Thomas.
Not everybody is as impressed with team success amongst individual players as you guys. Circumstances play too much of a factor in that.
The Nets getting to the finals doesn't necessarily make him better than someone like Nash or Paul. If Kidd hadn't gotten traded to the east he also likely doesn't get to the finals either and he wouldn't have been any worse a player for it.
[QUOTE=Young X]Let's not act like Dirk and the rest of the Mavs had nothing to do with that title in 2011. Kidd contributed alot to that team but he didn't win them that championship. He was 38 years old and at the end of his career. Let's be real.
I never said Paul was a top 3 PG all time (neither is Kidd). There's also nothing wrong with picking Nash over Stockton, Kidd, or Thomas.
[B][U]Not everybody is as impressed with team success amongst individual players as you guys.[/U][/B] Circumstances play too much of a factor in that.
The Nets getting to the finals doesn't necessarily make him better than someone like Nash or Paul. If Kidd hadn't gotten traded to the east he also likely doesn't get to the finals either and he wouldn't have been any worse a player for it.[/QUOTE]
Its only impressive when it fits an argument. Basketball is a team sport, unless Derek Fisher is a top 3 pg that is.
[QUOTE=Young X]Let's not act like Dirk and the rest of the Mavs had nothing to do with that title in 2011. Kidd contributed alot to that team but he didn't win them that championship. He was 38 years old and at the end of his career. Let's be real.
I never said Paul was a top 3 PG all time (neither is Kidd). There's also nothing wrong with picking Nash over Stockton, Kidd, or Thomas.
[B]Not everybody is as impressed with team success amongst individual players as you guys. Circumstances play too much of a factor in that. [/B]
The Nets getting to the finals doesn't necessarily make him better than someone like Nash or Paul. If Kidd hadn't gotten traded to the east he also likely doesn't get to the finals either and he wouldn't have been any worse a player for it.[/QUOTE]
I agree.
And looking at the circumstances, I definitely can't say Paul has gotten the most out of his. He's had plenty of opportunities with good squads. I can't look at Paul's circumstances and say he's gotten the most out of those squads. He's never even been a threat.
And the same goes for Nash. He was more of a threat, but at the end of the day he was a regular season champ who couldn't push great, incredibly talented squads over the edge.
Payton and Kidd both did more with less, but lets jerk off over stats some more.
[QUOTE=LJJ]I agree.
And looking at the circumstances, I definitely can't say Paul has gotten the most out of his. He's had plenty of opportunities with good squads. I can't look at Paul's circumstances and say he's gotten the most out of those squads. He's never even been a threat.
[B]And the same goes for Nash. He was more of a threat, but at the end of the day he was a regular season champ who couldn't push great, incredibly talented squads over the edge.[/B]
Payton and Kidd both did more with less, but lets jerk off over stats some more.[/QUOTE]
In '07 without that suspension he has a Title.
[QUOTE=Wade's Rings]In '07 without that suspension he has a Title.[/QUOTE]
Or the spurs still come back and win that series...honestly still don't think the suns win that series without the suspensions.
[QUOTE=LJJ]I agree.
And looking at the circumstances, I definitely can't say Paul has gotten the most out of his. He's had plenty of opportunities with good squads. I can't look at Paul's circumstances and say he's gotten the most out of those squads. He's never even been a threat.
And the same goes for Nash. He was more of a threat, but at the end of the day he was a regular season champ who couldn't push great, incredibly talented squads over the edge.
Payton and Kidd both did more with less, but lets jerk off over stats some more.[/QUOTE]
What did payton do with LESS?
[QUOTE=dhsilv]What did payton do with LESS?[/QUOTE]
Deandre Jordan >> Ervin Johnson
Blake > Kemp
Barnes << Schrempf
JJ = Hawkins
Supporting casts are about comparable imo.
[QUOTE=DaOldLion]for me this is between Kidd vs Payton for first, hard to choose. Probably go with GP[/QUOTE]
I agree with this. Payton was the better defender but that was when handchecking was allowed.
I guess i would choose Kidd cause he has a better shot at a triple double.
[QUOTE=90sgoat]Deandre Jordan >> Ervin Johnson
Blake > Kemp
Barnes << Schrempf
JJ = Hawkins
Supporting casts are about comparable imo.[/QUOTE]
I am 45 years old & i disagree. Hawkins was a way better defender then JJ. & Kemp was a monster in his prime, so i would say he was even with Blake.
No PG did more with less than Kidd. He was the main reason why Nets turn around as a franchise. His all around game what separate him from Payton and CP3. Even in 2011 Kidd was clearly the Mavs only playmaker that ran the offense plus he was they 3&D guy. Cats act like Curry was the only lightskin PG that was a great 3pt shooter that won a championship lol.
Truth be told Payton was overrated. People have revisionist about Payton. Dude was a underachiever and a headcase. He was on a team where they lost to a clearly inferior team in 94 and 95. Heck in 04 he was clearly one of main problem why the Lakers underachieve that year.
Cp3 is just a black Nash who plays defense. He don't have offensive game to take over like he should. Truth be told it hard for a PG to win as the game unless they have some offensive prowness with their game. But he is better than Payton cause he at least more of a pure PG than him.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]You have been utterly destroyed and my logic/arguments are sound.
You have offered nothing...well, you've now tried arguing that the Lakers had an elite offense in 04...and, sorry, they did not.
I really don't get some people on here...why even start a discussion if you can't even offer up some form of a valid argument and/or are not willing to change your position?
Like...the discussion ends when someone makes the obvious point that the Lakers weren't a special offensive team to begin with, struggled offensively in the playoffs prior to the finals, and looked pretty bad in the finals. That is the first thing someone is going to say.
And you cry and resort to ad hominem? Grow up or go home please.[/QUOTE]
:roll: :roll:
Again, whatever helps you sleep better at night. You really are as delusional as 3ball.
Since you're just too stupid to understand my points, I'll repost.
Yeah, if the Heat were healthy the Pistons do not make the Finals. [B]IF[/B] Kobe left his ego, he'd have 6 rings. It's not a 'fact'. Hypothetical scenario. The Pistons were an elite defensive squad, but not even close to being an ATG team. If you think that they're an ATG team, you simply haven't watched enough basketball.
You keep bringing up Rasheed and how he changed the offense, but the Pistons were still a garbage offense the next season. Somewhere around the 20th, IIRC.