[QUOTE=BarberSchool;14986446]He’s not tho.
Somewhere in the top 20 currently.
Will be top 12-15 when done.[/QUOTE]
What will make him better when he's done?
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[QUOTE=BarberSchool;14986446]He’s not tho.
Somewhere in the top 20 currently.
Will be top 12-15 when done.[/QUOTE]
What will make him better when he's done?
[QUOTE=BarberSchool;14986446]He’s not tho.
Somewhere in the top 20 currently.
Will be top 12-15 when done.[/QUOTE]
OP isn't talking about rankings, all that is legacy and based on circumstantial stats and achievements. This is simply about how 'good' Jokic is as far as what he does on the court. And from what I've seen here, the main talking point is that Jokic is so transcendent offensively that it puts him ahead of players who may be better 'two-way' players ( like Hakeem, as mentioned in the thread earlier). I don't know where I land on that, but there's no question that we are watching a historically significant player right now.
[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14986193]Okay well Jokic is about to be the best player for a 5th year in a row. Who else has done that besides MJ, Lebron, and maybe Kareem? I guess Mikan maybe?[/QUOTE]
I don't think Kareem ever had 5 years in a row of greatness...Mikan, Wilt, Dr. J, Bird, MJ, and Lebron
Relegating this one because I just heard a Bird argument earlier.
Dude played like Jokic as a slow passer a lot of times but got to his spots went off offensively like a “fvck you” version of Dirk at times as well.
Jokic can score efficiently in the paint because he’s enormous and make jumpers when people sag but Bird would run the court and pull up on people and hit everything when he got that feeling. He wasn’t better or worse than Jokic but definitely different.
[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14987467]Relegating this one because I just heard a Bird argument earlier.
Dude played like Jokic as a slow passer a lot of times but got to his spots went off offensively like a “fvck you” version of Dirk at times as well.
Jokic can score efficiently in the paint because he’s enormous and make jumpers when people sag but Bird would run the court and pull up on people and hit everything when he got that feeling. He wasn’t better or worse than Jokic but definitely different.[/QUOTE]
Jokic is definitely better on offense. If you're arguing for Bird you gotta use the defensive side of the ball. I don't even like Jokic so I'm not being biased, he just is a much more reliable playoff scorer than Bird.
I’m not talking about who’s better. I’m just saying play style.
Jokic 61/10/10 with 2 steals on elite efficiency.
Seriously it's lame how people are still "waiting" to crown this guy. He is probably having the best regular season in the 3-point ERA right now.
Idk, people can wait all they want, Jokic is already top 4-5 all time for me. I don't care about "greatness/resume/narratives". Just pure impact/basketball ability/skills, Jokic is literally up there with MJ, Lebron, and Kareem.
[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14989428]Jokic 61/10/10 with 2 steals on elite efficiency.
Seriously it's lame how people are still "waiting" to crown this guy. He is probably having the best regular season in the 3-point ERA right now.
Idk, people can wait all they want, Jokic is already top 4-5 all time for me. I don't care about "greatness/resume/narratives". [B]Just pure impact/basketball ability/skills[/B], Jokic is literally up there with MJ, Lebron, and Kareem.[/QUOTE]
Then why is he above Chamberlain? And is it at all important that a player is a great defender?
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14989443]Then why is he above Chamberlain? And is it at all important that a player is a great defender?[/QUOTE]
I guess I'm okay with throwing Wilt in the top 5 with Jokic.
Idk though, it's hard for me to take that era too seriously given the total lack of footage and completely different rules/NBA setup.
I give Kareem benefit of the doubt because he actually played through the entire 80's decade and was great even as an old/out of prime player.
And no, an individual player does not have to be a "great" defender if the rest of the players abilities are game-breaking. Jokic's level on defense is adequate enough, he's at least a league leader in steals and deflections, and has high BBIQ.
Don't literally all the stats show Denver is signicantly better on defense with jokic on the court?
He's not a highlight defense guy, but his impact there is shown to be positive. Like... as a fact. Just because he's white and has dumpy athleticism doesn't mean he doesn't understand angles, anticipate correctly, or give good effort in general on D.
It's a wierd meme people push. Magic was much worse on defense than Jokic and that would be highlighted today even more with all the quick guards and outside shooting.
[QUOTE=tpols;14989447]Don't literally all the stats show Denver is signicantly better on defense with jokic on the court?
He's not a highlight defense guy, but his impact there is shown to be positive. Like... as a fact. Just because he's white and has dumpy athleticism doesn't mean he doesn't understand angles, anticipate correctly, or give good effort in general on D.
It's a wierd meme people push. Magic was much worse on defense than Jokic and that would be highlighted today even more with all the quick guards and outside shooting.[/QUOTE]
Exactly, the only thing Jokic is actually not good at on defense is rim-protection. Obviously that is important, but he knows his limits and is good at positioning himself smartly on defense and limiting fouls instead of having dumb contests at the rim that he can't stop.
All players have SOME weakness to their game. Jokic is just groundbreaking everywhere else in basketball except for rim protection, so who cares. MJ couldn't shoot threes, Kareem couldn't either nor could he playmake like a PG, Lebron has limitations to his game too AND the 2011 finals debacle.
[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14989448]Exactly, the only thing Jokic is actually not good at on defense is rim-protection. Obviously that is important, but he knows his limits and is good at positioning himself smartly on defense and limiting fouls instead of having dumb contests at the rim that he can't stop.
All players have SOME weakness to their game. Jokic is just groundbreaking everywhere else in basketball except for rim protection, so who cares. MJ couldn't shoot threes, Kareem couldn't either nor could he playmake like a PG, Lebron has limitations to his game too AND the 2011 finals debacle.[/QUOTE]
A huge reason Jokic doesn't try to block shots is to avoid foul trouble in this WWE league.
It's somehow more logical for him to let them go just so he can slice and dice them on the other end. That's a ref and flop thing though. In a perfect competitive environment his defense would be even better because he wouldn't have to hold back.
[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14989446]I guess I'm okay with throwing Wilt in the top 5 with Jokic.
Idk though, it's hard for me to take that era too seriously given the total lack of footage and completely different rules/NBA setup.
I give Kareem benefit of the doubt because he actually played through the entire 80's decade and was great even as an old/out of prime player.
And no, an individual player does not have to be a "great" defender if the rest of the players abilities are game-breaking. Jokic's level on defense is adequate enough, he's at least a league leader in steals and deflections, and has high BBIQ.[/QUOTE]A player doesn't"have" to be anything. The question is whether or not defense is important. Is it?
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14989451]A player doesn't"have" to be anything. The question is whether or not defense is important. Is it?[/QUOTE]
I already gave you my answer :confusedshrug:
[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14989456]I already gave you my answer :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
Does it advance the argument for another player if he's a great defender?