Micheal Jordan Denial

[QUOTE=dejordan]ok, if that's what you think. you're entitled to your opinion, though stating it as fact over and over without bothering to back it up in any way is pretty antagonizing.

i've been a jordan fan since his third (sorry i put second, but that's not true) season, so i'm a bit biased, but in my opinion jordan at his prime was better than kobe at basically everything except three point shooting. faster, stronger, more explosive, better finisher around the rim, better post scorer, better midrange shooter (mostly because of better elevation to get shots off), better passer from every range, much better rebounder, better double team roamer / lane clogger, better shot blocker, better on the ball defender, better leader, and better clutch finisher on both ends. kobe is also a more creative dribbler, though i think he's bit more turnover prone, so i'm not sure that's 100% a good thing.

now i think kobe's playing incredible ball this year, and is currently better than mike at age 35 when he won his last mvp, but not mike at 29 when he led the league in scoring and steals and scored 41 a game in the finals on his way to his 3rd straight finals mvp.[/QUOTE]

Except Kobe is in his 12th year in the league and NOT in his prime. We never got to see what prime Kobe ( 01-05) could do with no Shaq. Even so, to me, Kobe is the better on ball defender( not quite as good team wise), better mid-range shoooter mostly because of his incredible abilty to shoot off the dribble, just as good a leader( this year), considerably more range and considerably better 3 pt shooter,all while being just as clutch. Also Kobe was the better free throw shooter.:pimp:

[QUOTE=mjbulls23]BTW, exactly what time period would you consider MJ's prime? I was thinking anywhere from 87 to 93 since it's hard to narrow it down from that....[/QUOTE]
it's tough to say. can't go wrong with anywhere between 89-93. personally i think around 90. he had developed the essentials of his post game as a way of throwing off the detroit double, still had the full explosiveness, and was integrating himself into a team game fluidly as he switched from being a scoring demon to a point guard to an off the ball member of the triangle.

MJ's prime was 89-93.:pimp:

[QUOTE=KINGD]Except Kobe is in his 12th year in the league and NOT in his prime. We never got to see what prime Kobe ( 01-05) could do with no Shaq. Even so, to me, Kobe is the better on ball defender( not quite as good team wise), better mid-range shoooter mostly because of his incredible abilty to shoot off the dribble, just as good a leader( this year), considerably more range and considerably better 3 pt shooter,all while being just as clutch. Also Kobe was the better free throw shooter.:pimp:[/QUOTE]
i actually agree that kobe peaked athletically earlier, but his mental game is peaking right now. he's playing incredibly smart, controlled, and dangerous ball. i think this is the best ball of his career (and i actually don't think jordan's most productive years statistically were his best years either. i put a lot of credence into the mental game and playing team ball).

we'll have to agree to disagree on matters of personal perception. though the difference in ft% is 0.4% for their careers (in kobe's favor) so less than 1/2 of a percentage point. if you only look at their career's through the 12th season mike's actually got the superior career ft%ages and 3pt%ages, but i wouldn't actually argue that he was a better shooter. just mention it because it's surprising.

[QUOTE=KINGD]Except Kobe is in his 12th year in the league and NOT in his prime. We never got to see what prime Kobe ( 01-05) could do with no Shaq. Even so, to me, [B]Kobe is the better on ball defender[/B]( not quite as good team wise), better mid-range shoooter mostly because of his incredible abilty to shoot off the dribble, just as good a leader( this year), considerably more range and considerably better 3 pt shooter,all while being just as clutch. Also Kobe was the better free throw shooter.:pimp:[/QUOTE]


I mean I'm sorry, but sometimes the things that get posted are just from Fantasyland. :confusedshrug:


Let me ask a question King D. How old are you? Did you watch Mike from 88-90?

[QUOTE=dejordan]it's tough to say. can't go wrong with anywhere between 89-93. personally i think around 90. he had developed the essentials of his post game as a way of throwing off the detroit double, still had the full explosiveness, and was integrating himself into a team game fluidly as he switched from being a scoring demon to a point guard to an off the ball member of the triangle.[/QUOTE]

ya I can agree.. it all balances out in a way, since he had the 32/8/8 season in 89 and then wins the championship in 91 playing within the triangle offense... I guess its only right that you pick 1990 ..

and speaking of Phil Jackson I will be the first one to give him a great deal of credit for showing MJ "the way"... I also believe playing the Pistons in the playoffs somewhat helped develop him & Pip as a players...


[QUOTE=KINGD]MJ's prime was 89-93.:pimp:[/QUOTE]

ya but it's tough to leave out the 87-88 season... although it was a great season, it probably didn't necessarily mean he was at his peak just yet

[QUOTE=dejordan]i actually agree that kobe peaked athletically earlier, but his mental game is peaking right now. he's playing incredibly smart, controlled, and dangerous ball. i think this is the best ball of his career (and i actually don't think jordan's most productive years statistically were his best years either. i put a lot of credence into the mental game and playing team ball).

we'll have to agree to disagree on matters of personal perception. though the difference in ft% is 0.4% for their careers (in kobe's favor) so less than 1/2 of a percentage point. if you only look at their career's through the 12th season mike's actually got the superior career ft%ages and 3pt%ages, but i wouldn't actually argue that he was a better shooter. just mention it because it's surprising.[/QUOTE]

Mental game? Who cares. I think Mike peaked mentally in 98. Does that make him better then 93 Jordan?No. Kobe is playing his typical ball this year. His true prime was 01-03 though. Kobe shot considerably more threes then MJ and still shot a higher %. Slightly better free throw shooter yes.:pimp:

[QUOTE=BIZARRO]I mean I'm sorry, but sometimes the things that get posted are just from Fantasyland. :confusedshrug:


Let me ask a question King D. How old are you? Did you watch Mike from 88-90?[/QUOTE]

I did. Kobe playing the likes of Wade/Davis/Gino/T-Mac/A.I./Redd/ Martin etc and doing a superb job.I find this EXTREMELY impressive when you consider todays defensive rules.:pimp:

[QUOTE=mjbulls23]
...Kobe is a great clutch player, but not as clutch as MJ to me seeing that it was routine for MJ.. He was known to raise his game in the playoffs and Finals... and Kobe has raised his level of play before too, especially in the 01 playoffs, but he hasn't done enough to show me he is a more clutch player than MJ was especially in the postseason...

don't get clutch shooter and player mixed up...

Reggie is a clutch shooter, MJ is a clutch player...

but then again, that's just my opinion :ohwell:[/QUOTE]

We should have this posted. I'm glad someone understands the difference. :applause:

[QUOTE=KINGD]I did. Kobe playing the likes of Wade/Davis/Gino/T-Mac/A.I./Redd/ Martin etc and doing a superb job.I find this EXTREMELY impressive when you consider todays defensive rules.:pimp:[/QUOTE]


So you are saying you did watch MJ in the late '80's. Is that what you are saying? Which would make you have to be at least 30 if that is the case.
I will take you at your word on that one.

Question One:
How can you say all this stuff when 99% of all stats favor MJ, some to most by a landslide? And adding to the stats that MJ was much more athletic.

Question Two:
You say Kobe is better, etc. How is it then that ALL 20 of the analysts for the top SG of all time on here lately voted for MJ as number 1? How is that the case, are you filled in with some knowledge they are not?


BTW for other, anyone who watched MJ play in his prime realizes how ridiculous this whole MJ/Kobe conversation is, but just posts to defend against the skewed perceptions of those who never saw him play in their prime.

This post explains Kobe's great TEAM defense as well.

And if we're going to look at how the defense falls apart when a player doesn't play, we might as well switch some of the attention to Kobe as LAs defense falls apart more when he's off court (-11.2 points per 100 possessions) than Boston's D does when KG sits (-9.2). Actually if you're going to use the points per 100 possessions to show defensive impact, Kobe's is bigger than any player in the running for the MVP, including KG.

Lakers defensive efficiency is worse than the worst team in the league (that would be the Knicks) by a good margin when Kobe is off the floor, and is better than the team ranked 4th (Hornets) with him on the floor. Don't know how much more you can ask for if you go by defensive efficiency as a way to measure defensive impact

LA's defense decreases by 12.2 points per 100 possessions when Kobe is on the bench, while the offense increases by 5.3 points per 100 possessions,

As a little follow up to the defensive impact argument, I've looked into on/off court impact in eFG% too. The leaders among players that play at least 50% are:

1. Kobe Bryant -5.1%
2. Marcus Camby -4.4%
3. Pau Gasol -4.3%
4. Kevin Garnett -4.1%

I think it's interesting how just about every shotblocker in the league has a good impact here, and few guards have good impact. It's very noteworthy that a guard is on top of the chart.

The leaders in on/off impact in defensive efficiency (points per 100 possessions) were:

1. Kobe Bryant -12.2
2. Josh Smith -9.1
x. Marcus Camby -8.3
x. Kevin Garnett -7.8 (can't remember all the players in between, but I know Kobe and Josh were 1 and 2).

So, I feel very confident when I say that Kobe is my DPOY at this point in the season followed by KG and Marcus Camby. Biggest impact in both eFG% and defensive efficiency is pretty big, especially for a guard. No stat is perfect unless you have the right context, and these are no different, but they show a strong indication none the less.

[url]http://www.ocregister.com/sports/lakers-kobe-bryant-1996873-left-game[/url]

I think Kobe should be DPOY .

[QUOTE=BIZARRO]So you are saying you did watch MJ in the late '80's. Is that what you are saying? Which would make you have to be at least 30 if that is the case.
I will take you at your word on that one.

Question One:
How can you say all this stuff when 99% of all stats favor MJ, some to most by a landslide? And adding to the stats that MJ was much more athletic.

Question Two:
You say Kobe is better, etc. How is it then that ALL 20 of the analysts for the top SG of all time on here lately voted for MJ as number 1? How is that the case, are you filled in with some knowledge they are not?


BTW for other, anyone who watched MJ play in his prime realizes how ridiculous this whole MJ/Kobe conversation is, but just posts to defend against the skewed perceptions of those who never saw him play in their prime.[/QUOTE]

Kobe and MJ have similar stats as starters. Even more similar as " the man" And Kobe finished at num 2 on that list...At 29 yrs old. Very impressive.

[QUOTE=KINGD]Kobe and MJ have similar stats as starters. Even more similar as " the man" And Kobe finished at num 2 on that list...At 29 yrs old. Very impressive.[/QUOTE]


Are those the stats where MJ has more points, more rebounds, more assists, much higher fg%, more blocks, less turnovers, and more steals?

:rolleyes:

I'm out. You can't reason with an unreasonable man. All 20 analysts agreed about MJ as #1, but yet we are now privy to this new opinion about Kobe Bryant. Unbelievable.

[QUOTE=BIZARRO]Are those the stats where MJ has more points, more rebounds, more assists, much higher fg%, more blocks, less turnovers, and more steals?

:rolleyes:

I'm out. You can't reason with an unreasonable man. All 20 analysts agreed about MJ as #1, but yet we are now privy to this new opinion about Kobe Bryant. Unbelievable.[/QUOTE]


No it's when MJ barely has "more" anything. Kobe's career is not finished. No prob with all them picking MJ at #1 but Kobe is better.:pimp:

[QUOTE=KINGD]Mental game? Who cares. I think Mike peaked mentally in 98. Does that make him better then 93 Jordan?No. Kobe is playing his typical ball this year. His true prime was 01-03 though. Kobe shot considerably more threes then MJ and still shot a higher %. Slightly better free throw shooter yes.:pimp:[/QUOTE]
you think kobe peaked at 22 - 24, and we didn't get to see it because of shaq? i don't know about that. that's awfully young for a guard to peak. for that matter kobe took 5 & 1/2 more shots per game than shaq in 2003 too (exactly 1 shot per game less than mike at the same age, when jordan averaged 35, won his first mvp, and the dpoy). he showed us what he had that year, and played amazing ball.

i think we may have missed out on his peak because he was hurt at ages 25 and 26. at 27 he got healthy, and now you can wonder: would he have been a better player from 25 yrs old to the present if he'd never been hurt? i think so. but i think that between 25 and 29 most players tend to hit their best combination of physical dominance and mental game - ( and by the way, when i say mental game i don't necessarily mean playing mind games. i mean understanding how to fit into a team and lead your teammates is what makes you win. even when you've got guys like jud buchler and bill wennington playing in your playoff rotations, you've got them motivated, confident, and able to play their roles, and that makes you a better player than someone who just shows up, guns up big numbers, and goes home mad at his teammates).

but i definitely think saying that we didn't see someone at their best is a slippery slope, and we should be careful (i'm agreeing with you, so i'll use the word "we"). you could claim the same thing about penny or hill if you wanted to and call them twice as good as they were (and people seem to do that subconsciously). or you could say that jordan had his best finals in 93, and would have had his best year ever if he'd played in 94. can't really prove or refute any of it.