Verdict is in: Jordan STILL consensus GOAT

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;14967086]This is where lack of self awareness shows. In 96(and honestly it was more like 98 not 96, I was there.) it was unanimous for us young Mj stans, just like the Lebron goat supporters today for the most part. There still existed older, more mature fans that still thought someone else was goat, we just didn't think they knew what the hell they were talking about. And plus we were all in air Jordan's how could you tell us otherwise? Lol.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, there were still a few people who had Wilt or Kareem as GOAT, but they were not the majority. Even the old heads were already saying MJ was the greatest player to ever step on the court.

The nearly 70% of fans who rank Jordan #1 are not all an older generation who watched basketball in the 90s. There's not enough of them to comprise that percentage.

[QUOTE=Full Court;14967088]Yeah, there were still a few people who had Wilt or Kareem as GOAT, but they were not the majority. Even the old heads were already saying MJ was the greatest player to ever step on the court.

The nearly 70% of fans who rank Jordan #1 are not all an older generation who watched basketball in the 90s. There's not enough of them to comprise that percentage.[/QUOTE]

Honestly it was never a big contingency calling Kareem goat although his greatness was always recognized. It was moreso about Wilt, Mj was set on measuring up to Wilt, it wasn't so much about rings until he got the 6th and had more than Magic, then, no surprise it because a big talking point. Before that nobody used rings as the end all be all of the goat debate, just this stupid generation. And the kids today aren't even hiding the fact that their choices are more about hating on Lebron than who they saw or prefer lol. Him and Kobe were some of the 1st in the era of polarizing faces of sports. Along with Floyd(Mayweather) they were like the pioneers of having as many haters as fans, Mj didn't have to worry as out that he came from a simpler time where good guys wore white and bad guys wore black and you believed it. This has as much to do with the goat conversation as any stats or accomplishment imo having watched it evolve over a few decades.....

As I recall it, some people had Wilt as goat in the 90s and people sort of accepted that, because of the stats and the mythical nature. Some had Bird, which people didn't argue against, cause it was mostly your racist uncle, so no use.

[QUOTE=90sgoat;14967184]As I recall it, some people had Wilt as goat in the 90s and people sort of accepted that, because of the stats and the mythical nature. Some had Bird, which people didn't argue against, cause it was mostly your racist uncle, so no use.[/QUOTE]

Bill Russell was called the GOAT in 1980 I think by a peer/media vote. There's always been sort of a revolving conversation with the GOAT debate and with good reason: the criteria is forever changing and shifting. MJ kind of came along and combined all elements into one package which is why he's gotten the nod for most of the past 30 years. He also robbed himself of stats and accolades by retiring twice in the 90s. 94 was probably another championship year and scoring title at the very least. Really if MJ hadn't missed most of 86 with a broken foot, most of 95 being retired, and hung around till like 2000( ( I think he would have officially passed the torch to Kobe and Shaq that year), he would have been the first to pass Kareem's scoring at 37-38 years old.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;14967164]Honestly it was never a big contingency calling Kareem goat although his greatness was always recognized. It was moreso about Wilt, Mj was set on measuring up to Wilt, it wasn't so much about rings until he got the 6th and had more than Magic, then, no surprise it because a big talking point. Before that nobody used rings as the end all be all of the goat debate, just this stupid generation. And the kids today aren't even hiding the fact that their choices are more about hating on Lebron than who they saw or prefer lol. Him and Kobe were some of the 1st in the era of polarizing faces of sports. Along with Floyd(Mayweather) they were like the pioneers of having as many haters as fans, Mj didn't have to worry as out that he came from a simpler time where good guys wore white and bad guys wore black and you believed it. This has as much to do with the goat conversation as any stats or accomplishment imo having watched it evolve over a few decades.....[/QUOTE]

Yet a couple decades after his retirement, history is still kind to Jordan. I guarantee the next generation will not be so kind to Lebron, and for good reason.

MJ only lost to 1 or 2 seeds with rookie teams, while Lebron lost to 3 and 4 seeds with league favorites in 10' and 11'

There are so many way to demonstrate Jordan's superiority.

Lebron needed sidekicks that made the Finals without him and outplayed league MVP's like Kyrie, Wade or Love, while Pippen never made the Finals without Jordan and was never expected to compete with the top players like Shaq or Barkley, let alone outplay them.

Again, there are so many ways.

The "best basketball" can be defined as dominant champions that averaged 1 loss per round or less (4 losses max), or dynasties that mostly won for a material stretch of 5+ years (i.e. 3 in 5 years).

Accordingly, since possession-tracking began in 1997, 1st options with a career assisted rate above 40% (jumpshooters or bigs) were 1st option for 12 of 12 dynasties or dominant champions (the best basketball).. Otoh, 1st options with a career assisted rate below 40% (ball-dominators) were never 1st option for the best basketball (0 for 12).

Since the best jumpshooters and bigs produce the best basketball, they're superior to the best ball-dominators, which means the first ball-dominators appear in the all-time rankings BEHIND the best bigs and jumpshooters.. The full rankings are MJ, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Kobe, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Curry, Jokic, Magic, Lebron, Oscar - the 2nd thru 10th spots are more interchangeable and subjective, but it's set in stone that MJ is #1 and ball-dominators are no higher than 11th, based on the historical record that ball-dominators are never the 1st option for the best basketball (dynasties or dominant champions)..

The issue is that low-assisted 1st options have a high volume of unassisted buckets that hinders ball movement, while highly-assisted 1st options produce higher-assist teams and foster the great ball movement that every dynasty has.. This is statistical fact (that highly-assisted 1st options produce MUCH higher-assist teams).

[QUOTE=Phoenix]Bill Russell was called the GOAT in 1980 I think by a peer/media vote. There's always been sort of a revolving conversation with the GOAT debate and with good reason: the criteria is forever changing and shifting. MJ kind of came along and combined all elements into one package which is why he's gotten the nod for most of the past 30 years. He also robbed himself of stats and accolades by retiring twice in the 90s. 94 was probably another championship year and scoring title at the very least. Really if MJ hadn't missed most of 86 with a broken foot, most of 95 being retired, and hung around till like 2000( ( I think he would have officially passed the torch to Kobe and Shaq that year), he would have been the first to pass Kareem's scoring at 37-38 years old.[/QUOTE]

Yep. Russell was voted the GOAT in 1980 and by a pretty large margin. Most people don't realize this.

[QUOTE=Full Court;14967188]Yet a couple decades after his retirement, history is still kind to Jordan. I guarantee the next generation will not be so kind to Lebron, and for good reason.[/QUOTE]

A couple of decades after retirement has been kind to most legends bud. I expect it to last a but longer for Mj because there's actually tape on enough of his career to not fade away like the 60s guys did by the 2000s. But make no mistake, the fading comes for everyone eventually, cycle of life my friend.

Jordan is too much of a mythical figure to fade away. His shoe brand is as popular as ever. The eye test on him suggests something of a one of one. Something Bill Russell cannot say to both of those things. Nobody on this forum will outlive the Jordan = GOAT narrative

Babe Ruth is still considered the GOAT of baseball, he played like 100 years ago.

Ruth was different though, he was hitting more home runs than other teams combined in some years and as a pitcher he led the league in ERA one year. Also helps that he won 7 world series and played for the most famous franchise in baseball history.

I don't think MJ left his mark the way Ruth did.

[QUOTE=Carbine;14967433]Jordan is too much of a mythical figure to fade away. His shoe brand is as popular as ever. The eye test on him suggests something of a one of one. Something Bill Russell cannot say to both of those things. Nobody on this forum will outlive the Jordan = GOAT narrative[/QUOTE]

In 100 years nobody will care about Michael Jordan. In fact there's a really good chance that nobody even cares about basketball at all.

[QUOTE=Carbine;14967433]Jordan is too much of a mythical figure to fade away. His shoe brand is as popular as ever. [B]The eye test on him suggests something of a one of one[/B]. Something Bill Russell cannot say to both of those things. Nobody on this forum will outlive the Jordan = GOAT narrative[/QUOTE]

Kobe Bryant says otherwise. And there's never been another guy like Russell.

[QUOTE=Wardell Curry;14967447]In 100 years nobody will care about Michael Jordan. In fact there's a really good chance that nobody even cares about basketball at all.[/QUOTE]

You may be right. But even fewer people will care about the guy known as LeShrivel, that's for sure. I know that really upsets some people on here.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;14967449]Kobe Bryant says otherwise. And there's never been another guy like Russell.[/QUOTE]

There are a few key differences between those two that make the eye test pretty conclusive that MJ was a different cat.

First was his athletic ability. He was just a better athlete. Better first step, better leaper, better vertical and hang time on him pull up jumper. MJ is probably the best basketball athlete for a guard ever.

Secondly MJ could do things in traffic with the ball Kobe couldn't because of the hand size difference.

There hasn't been another Bill in terms of winning but what I said about having a shoe line as popular as Jordans (keeps him extremely relevant with the younger generations) is very true. Bill has nothing like that whatsoever.

And if you watch Bill Russell's highlights as a player you aren't saying WOW. I haven't seen that before.

The way they played BBall and moved looked ancient compared to now. Jordans library of highlights can match or exceed anyone's currently playing. If there were a 30 minute reel of Bills highlights most young people would turn that shit off within a few minutes because it doesn't look good, point blank period.

Doesn't take away from Bill. He was the best of his era.

That era was definitely not a great looking game of basketball though. The game was still in its development stage. MJs game looks modern besides not jacking up 10 3s a game.

MJ's game does not look modern, he is constantly left wide open on long jumpers. WE DONE WITH THE 90s!

[QUOTE=RRR3;14967658]MJ's game does not look modern, he is constantly left wide open on long jumpers. WE DONE WITH THE 90s![/QUOTE]
[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/M2x6nLd/IMG-8528.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14967681][IMG]https://i.ibb.co/M2x6nLd/IMG-8528.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Jesus Christ. Even ****ing Westbrook is getting a (possibly halfhearted, but still) close out if he pumpfakes at the 3pt line :roll:

[QUOTE=RRR3;14967682]Jesus Christ. Even ****ing Westbrook is getting a (possibly halfhearted, but still) close out if he pumpfakes at the 3pt line :roll:[/QUOTE]

And still consensus GOAT....unlike your hero. :roll:


Keep crying it out.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14967681][IMG]https://i.ibb.co/M2x6nLd/IMG-8528.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

That looks like a free throw lol. To be fair Lebron probably has nearly as many of those as Mj early career. He used definitely used that space differently though.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14967658]MJ's game does not look modern, he is constantly left wide open on long jumpers. WE DONE WITH THE 90s![/QUOTE]

That’s what happens when a guy has a first step like Jordan’s.

[QUOTE=Carbine;14967627]There are a few key differences between those two that make the eye test pretty conclusive that MJ was a different cat.

First was his athletic ability. He was just a better athlete. Better first step, better leaper, better vertical and hang time on him pull up jumper. MJ is probably the best basketball athlete for a guard ever.

Secondly MJ could do things in traffic with the ball Kobe couldn't because of the hand size difference.

There hasn't been another Bill in terms of winning but what I said about having a shoe line as popular as Jordans (keeps him extremely relevant with the younger generations) is very true. Bill has nothing like that whatsoever.

And if you watch Bill Russell's highlights as a player you aren't saying WOW. I haven't seen that before.

The way they played BBall and moved looked ancient compared to now. Jordans library of highlights can match or exceed anyone's currently playing. If there were a 30 minute reel of Bills highlights most young people would turn that shit off within a few minutes because it doesn't look good, point blank period.

Doesn't take away from Bill. He was the best of his era.

That era was definitely not a great looking game of basketball though. The game was still in its development stage. MJs game looks modern besides not jacking up 10 3s a game.[/QUOTE]

I don't disagree with there being clear differences between Mj and Kobe , I always referred to him as "parade brand" Jordan in his 1st few years, but he eventually made it his own variation and while he had weaknesses Mj didn't, he also had strengths Mj wasn't as great at either.

About Russell though? Kobe was way closer to Mike than any player has been to Russell. You're just focusing on optics and that's only half the battle with Bill. Top tier defense and rebounding. Also excellent on the break as a passer and scorer, all While being one of the 1st guys to really excel at the mental side of the game, read up on him there's a reason he's the only player ever to coach a team to titles while still being in a jersey.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14967681][IMG]https://i.ibb.co/M2x6nLd/IMG-8528.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

This more due to how the game was played at the time. Given those limitations, his overall skillset still transcends the game.

Lebron has all the advantages of the modern game and yet his game is still ugly as fk.

[QUOTE=Gudo;14967734]This more due to how the game was played at the time. Given those limitations, his overall skillset still transcends the game.

Lebron has all the advantages of the modern game and yet his game is still ugly as fk.[/QUOTE]

Nobody with Lebron's frame will ever have as graceful a game as a guy like Mj cause physics. He has the most aesthetically pleasing game we've seen for that body type bar none. Who else that size can do even half of what he was capable of?

Lebron is not even ascrespected in his own era, how much less in an all-time scale?

[QUOTE=Airupthere;14967740]Lebron is not even ascrespected in his own era, how much less in an all-time scale?[/QUOTE]

That's absurd. Players might not put him above Kobe, or even some fans might not, but it's disingenuous to say he isn't respected. He's put together quite a resume to not be respected.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14967681][IMG]https://i.ibb.co/M2x6nLd/IMG-8528.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Matador defense

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14967681][IMG]https://i.ibb.co/M2x6nLd/IMG-8528.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

That’s some pickup shit.

We done with the 90's!

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14967732]That’s what happens when a guy has a first step like Jordan’s.[/QUOTE]

Thats the hilarious irony of it. :lol

Defenders wouldn't be guarding him like that today, hed be guarded just like any other star wing that presently exists, and that would make his 1st step even more deadly.

It is amazing how he consistently blew by guys that were playing 5+ feet off him. Doesn't even make sense. And they knew he was mostly going right and they still couldn't stop it.

Jordan would average 45 ppg in today's league.

[QUOTE=tpols;14967770]Thats the hilarious irony of it. :lol

Defenders wouldn't be guarding him like that today, hed be guarded just like any other star wing that presently exists, and that would make his 1st step even more deadly.

It is amazing how he consistently blew by guys that were playing 5+ feet off him. Doesn't even make sense. And they knew he was mostly going right and they still couldn't stop it.[/QUOTE]

Why does this sound like you're talking about LeBron? Because all the same things apply as much as it chafes your chub lol.

.
"DOMINANT CHAMPIONS" THAT AVERAGED 1 LOSS PER ROUND OR LESS (4 LOSSES MAX) SINCE 1997 AND THE 1ST OPTION FOR THAT RUN:


[Indent]
1. 2017 Warriors (16-1)........... DURANT

2. 2001 Lakers (15-1).............. SHAQ

3. 1999 Spurs (15-2)............... DUNCAN

4. 2024 Celtics (16-3).............. TATUM

5. 2023 Nuggets (16-4)............ JOKIC

6. 2007 Spurs (16-4)............... DUNCAN

7. 2002 Lakers (15-4).............. SHAQ

8. 1997 Bulls (15-4)................ JORDAN[/indent]




"DYNASTIES" THAT MOSTLY WON FOR A MATERIAL STRETCH OF 5+ YEARS (I.E. 3 IN 5) AND THEIR 1ST OPTION:


[indent]
1. Chicago Bulls..................... JORDAN

2. San Antonio Spurs.............. DUNCAN

3. Los Angeles Lakers............. SHAQ

4. Golden State Warriors......... CURRY[/Indent]


Since possession-tracking began in 1997, bigs or jumpshooters were required at 1st option for 8 of 8 "dominant champions" that averaged 1 loss or less per round for their title run (4 losses max), and 4 of 4 "dynasties" that mostly won for a material stretch of 5 years (i.e. 3 in 5).. So that's 12 of 12 instances of dynasties or dominant champions (the best basketball) where primary ball-handlers were NOT the 1st option in favor of bigs or jumpshooters.. Since the best bigs and jumpshooters produce the best basketball, they're superior to the best ball-dominators, which easily puts guys like Lebron and Oscar out of the top 10 for anyone that doesn't want them to be there - i.e. since primary ball-handlers cannot be 1st option for the best basketball, they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that can.

The issue is that high-scoring primary ballhandlers like Luka, Lebron or Harden score large amounts without being assisted by teammates (low assisted rates), so they have a large volume of unassisted buckets that hinders ball movement.. Otoh, highly-assisted 1st options like bigs and jumpshooters produce high assist teams and foster the great ball movement that every dynasty has.. Since 1997, players that averaged 25 ppg and above 50% assisted rate had top 5 assist teams 36 of 87 times (41%) and averaged 10th in team assists, while players that averaged 25 ppg and below 40% assisted rate (primary ballhandlers) produced top 5 assist teams 5 of 96 times (5%) and averaged 18th in team assists.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14967743]That's absurd. Players might not put him above Kobe, or even some fans might not, but it's disingenuous to say he isn't respected. He's put together quite a resume to not be respected.[/QUOTE]
Almost everyone who isn’t an obsessive hater has him over Kobe atp. They did a player poll on GOAT and it was just MJ and LeBron getting votes.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;14967821]Why does this sound like you're talking about LeBron? Because all the same things apply as much as it chafes your chub lol.[/QUOTE]


Ĺebron didn't really blow by guys nearly as often as MJ. He shouldered n elbowed them out the way with his momentum as a primary weapon. They have different styles.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14967824]Almost everyone who isn’t an obsessive hater has him over Kobe atp. They did a player poll on GOAT and it was just MJ and LeBron getting votes.[/QUOTE]

Yea, which is understandable at this point.

That current RealGM poll with 567 total votes has 91 votes (16%) for candidates other than Jordan (63%) and Lebron (21%).

[url]https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2301069[/url]

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14967992][url]https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2301069[/url][/QUOTE]

Nice try.

[url]https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2393113[/url]

It's not even close.

[QUOTE=Full Court;14968000]Nice try.

[url]https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2393113[/url]

It's not even close.[/QUOTE]

That's what bransexuals do, instead of just dealing with the truth lol.