Michael Jordan WON a championship by himself. Many are just Ignorant about it on ISH

We've had this discussion before; Bird was far and away the most important factor in that turnaround. It's not really arguable.

All players - be it Bird or Jordan - need teammates to achieve things. That's not the point though.

[QUOTE=LeBird]Sure, but there is a difference: Bird was going to win no matter what. Even without McHale/Parish he took his team to the #1 best record in his Rookie season. He wasn't reliant on a specific teammate. That's the point. I think Jordan has a very small list of players he could have had as teammates to have succeeded and he was lucky he got the best one - Pippen, who was willing to be a lesser player in order to win more.

Bird, Lebron, they just needed a good team. It didn't necessarily matter the kind of players they got because they are so adjustable. Jordan was one-track for most of his career.[/QUOTE]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Not gonna even bother with this bullshit, because that's what IT is, bullshit.

[QUOTE=LeBird]
Bird, Lebron, they just needed a good team. It didn't necessarily matter the kind of players they got because they are so adjustable. Jordan was one-track for most of his career.[/QUOTE]

**** outta here with this noise. :oldlol: You can't look at what ACTUALLY HAPPENED (Jordan winning with a certain team) and conclude that that's the way it HAD TO happen. Fact is, Jordan simply never had a good team around him aside from the championship years and '90.

Many players didn't have good teams and got them to far more success than Jordan did. That's just a fact. Bird, Lebron, Russell, etc got what they had and made do.

Jordan couldn't even get to .500 without Pippen and Grant. The Jordan fans rewriting history...what else is new?

[QUOTE=LeBird]Many players didn't have good teams and got them to far more success than Jordan did. That's just a fact. Bird, Lebron, Russell, etc got what they had and made do.

[B][COLOR="Red"]Is this a joke?[/COLOR][/B]

Jordan couldn't even get to .500 without Pippen and Grant. The Jordan fans rewriting history...what else is new?[/QUOTE]

This is extremely misleading on many levels.

No one has won a championship by themselves. That's retarded. Basketball is a team sport. MJ didn't score every point, grab every rebound, or guard all 5 offensive players at the same time.

This thread is dumb.

:coleman:

[QUOTE=LeBird]Many players didn't have good teams and got them to far more success than Jordan did. That's just a fact. Bird, Lebron, Russell, etc got what they had and made do.

Jordan couldn't even get to .500 without Pippen and Grant. The Jordan fans rewriting history...what else is new?[/QUOTE]

this is f'ked up on so many levels, its not even funny.

no wonder why MJ said [b]"give me mchale & parish or Kareem & worthy & I'll start winning rings too. all I got is pippen & grant"[/B]

[QUOTE=LeBird]We've had this discussion before; Bird was far and away the most important factor in that turnaround. It's not really arguable.

All players - be it Bird or Jordan - need teammates to achieve things. That's not the point though.[/QUOTE]

There's simply no way a rookie Bird was anywhere near solely responsible for that 12.15 SRS turaround. Hell, not even prime Bird comes close to being anywhere near that valuable - or any player for that matter.

Also, you don't really understand Jordan or Lebron's game very well if you think that Lebron is the more transferable or adjustable player. Jordan's all time great off ball play would allow him to fit in on almost any team. Lebron - no offense to one of the best players ever - is probably one of the least transferable superstars that I've seen since I started watching basketball. This is probably Lebron's single biggest weakness as an all time great, and it's something I've discussed in depth on other boards. Up until this year, and even this year to an extent, Lebron has to have the ball in his hands to be effective. Until he really learns to play off the ball and within the flow of an offense, it's always going to be that way.

Bird is a different story. Bird really could fit in almost anywhere I'd imagine, but so could Jordan. Jordan's defense and off ball play are a big reason for that.

[QUOTE=gengiskhan]this is f'ked up on so many levels, its not even funny.

no wonder why MJ said [b]"give me mchale & parish or Kareem & worthy & I'll start winning rings too. all I got is pippen & grant"[/B][/QUOTE]
Lol he never said that GTFO

Also, you don't really understand Jordan or Lebron's game very well if you think that Lebron is the more transferable or adjustable player. Jordan's all time great off ball play would allow him to fit in on almost any team. Lebron - no offense to one of the best players ever - is probably one of the least transferable superstars that I've seen since I started watching basketball. This is probably Lebron's single biggest weakness as an all time great, and it's something I've discussed in depth on other boards. Up until this year, and even this year to an extent, Lebron has to have the ball in his hands to be effective. Until he really learns to play off the ball and within the flow of an offense, it's always going to be that way.[QUOTE]




[/QUOTE]
Very true We saw this in 11. James doesnt play off the ball well at all

[QUOTE=97 bulls]You always start your post by stating you never said yada, yada, yada. But then everything you post afterward goes contrary to that statement. At least the other two are man enough to admit they feel Jordan made Pippen. [/QUOTE]

And I wouldn't have to keep saying that if you didn't continuously ignore that I've said it previously multiple times.

No it doesn't. You just can't help but spin anything said that's neutral, not positive or negative, toward Pippen into something negative.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]
Fact is none of us know how Pippen wouldve faired without Jordans influence. All signs point to his being successful. Hell he became everything scouts felt hed become. And this was before he even met Michael Jordan. [/QUOTE]

I never said he could never be successful without Jordan.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]
Most importantly, why does this need to become an issue? Im sure Bird and Mchale practiced post moves on each other. Who gets penalised? Jabaar taught Magic how to do that baby hook shot. Do we penalize Magic? Jordan stated Pippen helped his game as well. Mainly teamwork. Do we penalize Jordan?

Thats what teammates do. Thats why they practice. [/QUOTE]

I'VE SAID MULTIPLE TIMES HE SHOULDN'T BE PENALIZED. DO YOU NOT ****ING READ?

[QUOTE=LeBird]Many players didn't have good teams and got them to far more success than Jordan did. That's just a fact. Bird, Lebron, Russell, etc got what they had and made do.

Jordan couldn't even get to .500 without Pippen and Grant. The Jordan fans rewriting history...what else is new?[/QUOTE]

:oldlol: he only played 2 full seasons before he started playing with Pippen and Grant and in his first winning season with them they only played 20 mpg.

I swear some people act like Pippen saved Jordan from becoming Stephon Marbury. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]You can't look at what ACTUALLY HAPPENED (Jordan winning with a certain team) and conclude that that's the way it HAD TO happen.[/QUOTE]

Isn't that what you guys do with Kobe? Even though he won with 2 completely different teams? I see people acting like Kobe was just Joe Johnson playing on loaded teams.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]There's simply no way a rookie Bird was anywhere near solely responsible for that [B][U][SIZE="4"]12.15 SRS[/SIZE][/U][/B] turaround. [/QUOTE]

What is that stat? What does it actually measure?

[QUOTE=jlip]What is that stat?[/QUOTE]

Simple Rating System.

[QUOTE]What does it actually measure?[/QUOTE]

On basketball reference, there is a simple definition:

"A rating that takes into account average point differential and strength of schedule. The rating is denominated in points above/below average, where zero is average."

And a more detailed one:

[url]http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=37[/url]

You can also go to the glossary section on b-ball ref, to look up other definitions of these stats (like strength of schedule, as well).