prime dirk vs current durant?

[QUOTE=Pointguard]I said KG was a more versatile scorer and in the playoffs there wasn't that much of a difference in playoff scoring in their prime. They shot practically the same percentage with Moses being at point blank range. KG was much better defender, a much better passer, a much better decision maker and much better defensive rebounder.

But they were both probably the two best go-hard taller superstars in the game. When the M&M train came even Kareem had to side step.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=279443[/url]

Let's not lie. Shall we? There isn't a single post that you used 'versatile scorer'. You mentioned KG had more versatile overall game.

[QUOTE=Odinn][url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=279443[/url]

Let's not lie. Shall we? There isn't a single post that you used 'versatile scorer'. You mentioned KG had more versatile overall game.[/QUOTE]

:lol Wow, can you read?

From the thread above are two examples below.

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7895250&postcount=41[/url]

"[I]It doesn't compensate for all [/I] of KG numerous advantages. Its not close. And in [B]total offense [/B]KG has an advantage because of assist/ lack of turnovers/ being much more skilled/[B] versatility[/B]/shooting/ decision [I]making and range[/I]."

It's plain as day. But you should know better.

And in a response to Legends66NBA post 44:
"[I]If you seen[/I] Moses play, his game was straight up what you saw: he put his head down and bulled toward the basket, frequently getting [I]his own rebound[/I]."

[QUOTE=Odinn]That was my point. Since it's all relative comparisons, it is truly important what's related to it.

Let me ask you something then. I think 2002-03 would be more accurate instead of 2005-2007 span.

Where would you rank 2012-13 Durant if he played in 2002-03 season?
Pretty select company as his competitors there.
Tim Duncan at his absolute best.
Shaq was a little bit out of shape but still 27/12/3/2 guy.
Kobe Bryant entered his prime. (although you can claim he did in 2000-01)
Nowitzki, too. If he wasn't injured the Mavs could keep their NBA Finals dream alive. (it'd be ignorant to say the Mavs would win it all if there wasn't the injury. Before Dirk going down, the Spurs were leading 2-1 and Duncan was dominating the series)
T-Mac had his best season.
KG had one of his best seasons as well.
C-Webb went down but he was on his form.
It was Kidd's highest scoring season and playoff. Also he led the league in apg once more.

Calling C-Webb and Kidd potential top 25 ever is a bit optimistic but as for top talents, it was one of the best season I've ever witnessed.[/QUOTE]
I think he'd for sure be behind Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, and Kobe. I know a lot of people on here love T-Mac and think it's a no-brainer that 2003 T-Mac (his peak) was better than any version of Durant we've seen so far, but I think it'd at least be debatable between he and Durant on who should or would rank where. Basically, after Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, and Kobe, I think you could make a case for Durant being higher than all of the other players you listed.

[QUOTE=KG215]I think he'd for sure be behind Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, and Kobe. I know a lot of people on here love T-Mac and think it's a no-brainer that 2003 T-Mac (his peak) was better than any version of Durant we've seen so far, but I think it'd at least be debatable between he and Durant on who should or would rank where. Basically, after Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, and Kobe, I think you could make a case for Durant being higher than all of the other players you listed.[/QUOTE]
T-Mac had more of a man's game than Durant though. Kobe DEFINITELY had more of a man's game than Durant.

Maybe you can say it doesn't matter, but to me it does matter that he is so frail and officiated with marshmallow padded kid-gloves.

IMO, its a fair criticism. I get sick of seeing him trying to handle the ball while fumbling around like a newborn giraffe and hearing the refs whistle to send him to the free throw line for dribbling the ball off of his own foot.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]When you lead the 11 Mavs roster.....and a season ending injury one to a key player...and your team goes 2-7 without you...to 57 wins...[/quote]
Five of those teams beat Dallas at home with Dirk and these loses were on the road right after they lost their second best scorer along with Dirk.

[quote]
And then are easily the best player when the games matter more en route to the title. Yea...you have an argument for the best player in the league?

How can anyone say Lebron or Wade were better than Dirk in 11? They had the best team and Dirk beat them...LOL...and Dirk led his team to 1 less win in a much tougher conference with a worse team? [/quote]
Chauncey Billups was better than Kobe and Shaq? Cause Kobe and Shaq were massacred.

One series should never decide who is the better player. When Wade had a much better regular season and a vastly superior finals than Dirk had 2011, he wasn't considered the best player in the game - most people had Kobe ahead of him who had no imprint in the postseason. So no way should one dimensional Dirk be super special and get the nod here.

Dallas won on defense. Lebron and Wade usually score much more than they did - they usually score more than Dirk (Durant and Kobe too). Dirk can't get that credit. And YOU are a hardcore believer that defense and rebounding is a reason why teams win. You argue that like a crazed maniac here on the boards. You can't have it both ways. When Tyson left, I think the only starter gone, they didn't win a playoff game the next year. Not ONE. With Dirk producing like he did the year before.

And its very different if Dirk just scored waaaay more than he usually does but the main reason they won is that this eras highest scorers were basically trash when they played Dallas.
[quote]
Howard is the only player in 11 that has an argument over Dirk...and the playoffs from Dirk trump that.
[/quote]
Interesting - you must value defense and rebounding - wait no you obviously don't. His team faired well in the first half of the season...

[quote]
It's just beyond comical at this point. stop focusing on meaningless regular season games against shit competition. If you really think Dirk would be a better player because he played a few more minutes per game agains the worst teams in the league throughout his career...you really need to rethink how you evaluate player. [/quote]

Sorry the entire history of sports counts all games. Not just me. Not just basketball, its in all sports. Stop trying to make up your own rules. Dirk plays mediocre defense which is half the game and you often argue that its why Chicago had the best record. Its a high value point.

Creativity is also a very big mark for offensive players in all fluid sports and Dirk is mediocre there as well. Lebron and Wade are way more creative, better passers, more resourceful, better passers, creators for others and better offensive players overall. They are much better defenders. Position wise they are the best rebounders at their position while Dirk is mediocre. There is no advantage Dirk has on them being that scoring is part of offense. You could say clutch shooting but Terry has that on them too.

And sorry if you take the 105 games played over the course of the year, line up their best games to worse games against Dirks they both have like a 80/25 type of advantage. If you include defense its jumps to 85% of all games where they play better than Dirk. In no sport would that type of disparity be given to the Dirk type of guy. Its ludicrous.

And Dirk plays with a handicap - he guards off his position way more than an average player. There are no other top 40 maybe top 50 players that did this.

[quote]
I guess if you are a KG stan you have to greatly value production in the regular season on bad teams, but you take it to the extremes...[/QUOTE]

KG won a title as the best player and played on more contending teams than Dirk ever did while just focusing on defense when KG was beyond his prime. You greatly underestimate defense, without Tyson Chandler Dirk wouldn't be in conversation of best PFs. But defense doesn't factor in for you.

Prime Dirk IMO. Durant should get in that level however.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Five of those teams beat Dallas at home with Dirk and these loses were on the road right after they lost their second best scorer along with Dirk.


Chauncey Billups was better than Kobe and Shaq? Cause Kobe and Shaq were massacred.

One series should never decide who is the better player. When Wade had a much better regular season and a vastly superior finals than Dirk had 2011, he wasn't considered the best player in the game - most people had Kobe ahead of him who had no imprint in the postseason. So no way should one dimensional Dirk be super special and get the nod here.

Dallas won on defense. Lebron and Wade usually score much more than they did - they usually score more than Dirk (Durant and Kobe too). Dirk can't get that credit. And YOU are a hardcore believer that defense and rebounding is a reason why teams win. You argue that like a crazed maniac here on the boards. You can't have it both ways. When Tyson left, I think the only starter gone, they didn't win a playoff game the next year. Not ONE. With Dirk producing like he did the year before.

And its very different if Dirk just scored waaaay more than he usually does but the main reason they won is that this eras highest scorers were basically trash when they played Dallas.

Interesting - you must value defense and rebounding - wait no you obviously don't. His team faired well in the first half of the season...



Sorry the entire history of sports counts all games. Not just me. Not just basketball, its in all sports. Stop trying to make up your own rules. Dirk plays mediocre defense which is half the game and you often argue that its why Chicago had the best record. Its a high value point.

Creativity is also a very big mark for offensive players in all fluid sports and Dirk is mediocre there as well. Lebron and Wade are way more creative, better passers, more resourceful, better passers, creators for others and better offensive players overall. They are much better defenders. Position wise they are the best rebounders at their position while Dirk is mediocre. There is no advantage Dirk has on them being that scoring is part of offense. You could say clutch shooting but Terry has that on them too.

And sorry if you take the 105 games played over the course of the year, line up their best games to worse games against Dirks they both have like a 80/25 type of advantage. If you include defense its jumps to 85% of all games where they play better than Dirk. In no sport would that type of disparity be given to the Dirk type of guy. Its ludicrous.

And Dirk plays with a handicap - he guards off his position way more than an average player. There are no other top 40 maybe top 50 players that did this.



KG won a title as the best player and played on more contending teams than Dirk ever did while just focusing on defense when KG was beyond his prime. You greatly underestimate defense, without Tyson Chandler Dirk wouldn't be in conversation of best PFs. But defense doesn't factor in for you.[/QUOTE]


Well...I have Wade as the best player in 06...actually. LOL

KG was on more contending teams? Oh...you mean when he joined two other first ballot hall of famers and only won 1 title? When he got his shit kicked by Pau Gasol in the 10 finals? That guy?

You can keep ignoring it all you want. First is that the playoffs matter more when comparing all time great players. It's just a fact. Second is that Dirk improved his team more than anyone you have mentioned in the 2011 regular season. Not only was his team garbage without him, but in games they were garbage when he went to the bench. As the offense fell off over 10 points and the defense fell by 6 points. What player have you mentioned made that kind of impact on his team? Nobody...

Stop under-rating Dirk's regular season impact! You can't value the regular season and then laugh off winning 57 despite the circumstances in the much tougher conference. Shit...the Mavs tied for the 4th best record in the league.

I do value defense. I just also value offense and overall impact. By you ranking Rose over Dirk...you clearly don't value either. Rose was a worse defender than Dirk in 11...and a worse offensive player as well. And he choked in the playoffs.

It's not just 1 series. Dirk was the best player in the playoffs. It's a fact. And when you are the best player in the playoffs...and you beat nearly all the guys you mentioned as well...I mean...it speaks volumes. Again...Dirk was the best player in the playoffs. And he beat LA, Kobe, Gasol, Durant, Westbrook, Lebron, Wade, and Bosh.

With many of those guys having more help.

Dirk just had an under-rated regular season. I've shown you why...yet you avoid it. If Dirk doesn't miss those 9 games. The Mavs win 60...

Yet you want to give Rose all this credit for playing worse defense...having more help...and playing in the lesser conference? And then playing much worse in the playoffs?

Like..seriously dude. Check your bias...nobody being remotely objective would look back at the entirety of 2011 and conclude Rose was a better player than Dirk. Nobody.

Please respond to the numbers I posted. You claimed Dirk didn't win any close games. I torched that assertion. You also claimed that Dirk didn't have the impact those other guys did...I torched that one as well.


All the stuff you say about Wade and Lebron is just false. That is the flaw in how you view the game. You are one of those retarded offense vs offense and defense vs defense guys. I've repeatedly shredded just how flawed that way of thinking is. You get stupid conclusions like KG better than Magic and Kobe...we've been over it. You simply don't give Dirk enough credit for his true impact on the game. What he does offensively overall combined with his much better defense and rebounding (especially in his prime) than you give him credit for makes one of the best impact players ever. See...he's way better than his stats show. It's why his impact in 11 is shown in those on/off stuff.

And I also find it funny coming from someone that rails on Dirk for his 07 series. If one series is just not that big of a deal...than I guess Dirk has a claim for best player in 07. Shit...he was the best regular season player...if one series and the playoffs don't matter much. Guess he takes the cake on that one...

ISH...where averaging 28/8/3 on 61% TS while having the most clutch playoff run of the era by far doesn't matter as much as meaningless regular season games...of which Dirk won at a rate as well as anyone with less help.

Seriously? Wade, Lebron, and Bosh only mustered up 58 wins in a weak ass conference. If they were as good as you say they are...how did Dirk lead his team to only 1 less win despite injuries and playing in a much harder conference? How did that happen?

I also just have to laugh at the "without Chandler" Dirk is nothing comment. Think about that for a second. That is what Dirk needs to win. A guy nobody in the league even wanted...and a 6th man one dimensional sub 20 ppg scorer. Yet all the other guys you mention in 11 need more. Durant couldn't win with Westbrook and Harden. What does that make Lebron? Worse than nothing? Dude ****ing needed Wade and Bosh and deep as **** teams to win. Kobe has needed more help than Dirk had in 11...although at least it's more comparable than what Lebron/Wade have needed...and what Durant is looking like he'll need.

Like seriously. You people that use Chandler against Dirk...what the **** are you thinking? Is that supposed to be a negative? Like...yea, Dirk's good, but he needed Tyson Chandler and Terry to win a title so it's not that impressive. That is seriously going through your retarded minds?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
KG was on more contending teams? Oh...you mean when he joined two other first ballot hall of famers and only won 1 title? When he got his shit kicked by Pau Gasol in the 10 finals? That guy?
[/quote]
We can bring up bad playoff nonsense all day right? They won on defense and neither of the two were good defenders and past prime KG lead the team in scoring in the playoffs.
[quote]
You can keep ignoring it all you want. First is that the playoffs matter more when comparing all time great players. It's just a fact. Second is that Dirk improved his team more than anyone you have mentioned in the 2011 regular season. Not only was his team garbage without him, but in games they were garbage when he went to the bench. As the offense fell off over 10 points and the defense fell by 6 points. What player have you mentioned made that kind of impact on his team? Nobody... [/quote]
They won two finals games with Dirk playing bad for most of the game.
[quote]
I do value defense. I just also value offense and overall impact. By you ranking Rose over Dirk...you clearly don't value either. Rose was a worse defender than Dirk in 11...and a worse offensive player as well. And he choked in the playoffs.[/quote]
Rose greatly affected ever elite PG over the course of the year and guarded DWade very well in the playoffs. Dirk plays with a handicapp. You are just being stupid now.
[quote]
All the stuff you say about Wade and Lebron is just false. That is the flaw in how you view the game. You are one of those retarded offense vs offense and defense vs defense guys. I've repeatedly shredded just how flawed that way of thinking is. You get stupid conclusions like KG better than Magic and Kobe...we've been over it. [/quote]
:lol I love it when I get you flustered. You begin lying, saying off the wall stuff and say you destroyed stuff. You destroyed your composure and that's been about it.

Is this lie on me day here. LOL, I know I never said that about Magic because I never have Magic ranked below three all time.

[quote]
And I also find it funny coming from someone that rails on Dirk for his 07 series. If one series is just not that big of a deal...than I guess Dirk has a claim for best player in 07. Shit...he was the best regular season player...if one series and the playoffs don't matter much. Guess he takes the cake on that one... [/quote]
I thought Nash had his best year that year and deserved it that year moreso than the other two years he won. Offensively he was better than Dirk as was Kobe too. Duncan was the best all around player with Lebron behind him. They were all much better in the playoffs. That year was tigher than usual but if Dirk played good defense I would have given him the regular season.

[quote]
ISH...where averaging 28/8/3 on 61% TS while having the most clutch playoff run of the era by far doesn't matter as much as meaningless regular season games...of which Dirk won at a rate as well as anyone with less help.

Seriously? Wade, Lebron, and Bosh only mustered up 58 wins in a weak ass conference. If they were as good as you say they are...how did Dirk lead his team to only 1 less win despite injuries and playing in a much harder conference? How did that happen?[/QUOTE]

They were a well constructed team that could win two games in the finals with him playing bad most of the game.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]You greatly underestimate defense, without Tyson Chandler Dirk wouldn't be in conversation of best PFs.[/QUOTE]

What is this implying ?

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]What is this implying ?[/QUOTE]
Without Tyson's defense they didn't win a playoff game the next year. If he wasn't around in 2011 no way does Dirk get lumped in with Barkley, Malone, McHale and Garnett. Dirk wasn't in that conversation before.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Without Tyson's defense they didn't win a playoff game the next year. If he wasn't around in 2011 no way does Dirk get lumped in with Barkley, Malone, McHale and Garnett. Dirk wasn't in that conversation before.[/QUOTE]

They didn't win a playoff game because the roster was completely different.

When you state one of the best PF's, I assume it's the Top 10. And Nowitzki had already enough on his resume to be considered one of the Top 50 players of all-time, which would put him in the Top 10 of PF's already. So really, Tyson Chandler had very little (if not nothing) to do with Nowtizki being one of the best PF's. Infact, he outproduced him.

And I can't see what case McHale has over Nowitzki outside of peak play. His individual achievements were already better before the ring. I don't really see how he can be above him all-time before that time. Infact, what puts him over Bob Pettit and Elvin Hayes outside of his rings ?

[QUOTE=Pointguard]We can bring up bad playoff nonsense all day right? They won on defense and neither of the two were good defenders and past prime KG lead the team in scoring in the playoffs.

They won two finals games with Dirk playing bad for most of the game.

Rose greatly affected ever elite PG over the course of the year and guarded DWade very well in the playoffs. Dirk plays with a handicapp. You are just being stupid now.

:lol I love it when I get you flustered. You begin lying, saying off the wall stuff and say you destroyed stuff. You destroyed your composure and that's been about it.

Is this lie on me day here. LOL, I know I never said that about Magic because I never have Magic ranked below three all time.


I thought Nash had his best year that year and deserved it that year moreso than the other two years he won. Offensively he was better than Dirk as was Kobe too. Duncan was the best all around player with Lebron behind him. They were all much better in the playoffs. That year was tigher than usual but if Dirk played good defense I would have given him the regular season.



They were a well constructed team that could win two games in the finals with him playing bad most of the game.[/QUOTE]


You can't follow as usual. I'm saying your retarded way of thinking leads to terrible conclusions. I didn't say you specifically said KG was better than Magic. Although I don't know how you stay consistent and not say that if individual defense is this important.

Rose made no impact on defense. His team absurdly better without him. Just a fact. It was the bench play defensively that made the Bulls such a great team....great regular season team in a shit conference of course.

Look. It all comes down to you not valuing the playoffs much. Which is fine. Just don't pretend like you do.

Because in the regular season...Dirk was at least a top 3 impact guy on his team. Only Rose and Howard would have a case for better...and really only Howard.

Then Dirk was just factually the best player in the playoffs. If that doesn't add up to best player overall in 11...then so that is your take...fine.

Just don't come on here and act like you don't just prop up guys for regular season shit when they get rocked in the playoffs.

You ranked Kobe and Rose over Dirk in 11...nothing else needs to be said. You are a hater...

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Without Tyson's defense they didn't win a playoff game the next year. If he wasn't around in 2011 no way does Dirk get lumped in with Barkley, Malone, McHale and Garnett. Dirk wasn't in that conversation before.[/QUOTE]

Actually he was by anyone that watched them all play. I think even Kblaze had Dirk over Malone years ago...and he's not a big Dirk fan at all.

Keep thinking that though.

Also, the same could be said for any of them. Take Stockton away from Malone. KG doesn't go to Boston. Barkley never gets those Suns teams...etc.

They were all made. The difference? Tyson Chandler is easily the worst 2nd best guy out of any guys the above players played with.

I mean...are you listening to yourself right now? You are knocking Dirk for needing Chandler to win. Malone never won with Stockton and Sloan...and really good teams. Barkley never won with a loaded Suns team. KG needed an absurdly stacked team to win...

But yea...Dirk needing Chandler is a knock...GTFO

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]You can't follow as usual. I'm saying your retarded way of thinking leads to terrible conclusions.

Rose made no impact on defense. His team absurdly better without him. Just a fact. It was the bench play defensively that made the Bulls such a great team....great regular season team in a shit conference of course.

Look. It all comes down to you not valuing the playoffs much. Which is fine. Just don't pretend like you do.

Because in the regular season...Dirk was at least a top 3 impact guy on his team. Only Rose and Howard would have a case for better...and really only Howard.

Then Dirk was just factually the best player in the playoffs. If that doesn't add up to best player overall in 11...then so that is your take...fine.

Just don't come on here and act like you don't just prop up guys for regular season shit when they get rocked in the playoffs.

You ranked Kobe and Rose over Dirk in 11...nothing else needs to be said. You are a hater...[/QUOTE]
Chalk it up to the dumb mentality of sports fans. Every current, OK player is an all time great...

But...

Every all time great of the past is an untouchable god who no current player could ever touch.

If Dirk had the same career but 10 years earlier, it would be blasphemous to compare Durant to him. Since they play at the same time, fcuk it. Durant is entering his prime and Dirk is past his. Meh. Let's pretend Durant is better only because he's better right now.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]Chalk it up to the dumb mentality of sports fans. Every current, OK player is an all time great...

But...

Every all time great of the past is an untouchable god who no current player could ever touch.[/QUOTE]

Could you imagine if Malone and Barkley played out their entire careers in this era and never won? With Malone playing his entire career with Jason Kidd and Barkley playing on at least a few loaded teams?

These morons would be saying;

Malone/Barkley can't touch McHale...etc.

What gets me the most...is that people think it's a knock on Dirk that he needed Chandler to win. Chandler was nothing before 11. No team in the league even wanted him. And it wasn't his contract because it was expiring...the league concluded he was a bum. A cast off player nobody wanted...and somehow Dirk needing a guy that can't average a double double to win is a knock on him?

Now, don't get me wrong, I actually like Chandler and thought he was great for us, but certainly nowhere near as good as most 2nd best guys on title winning teams.