Wilt Chamberlain scoring highlights 1960-1968

[QUOTE=trueDS]You know I could tell the same: "if you don't see that mobility in first move (1967 game) and the one from 1:45 mark (1964 game) is the same, then you are blind"? Where such discussion will lead us? But anyway, thank you, I wasn't sure before, but now I'm that you are not interested in real discussion about Wilt, you just want to show that he was unstoppable scorer (or whatever you believe), no matter what reality really was. Good luck with that.[/QUOTE]
trueDS the expert on Wilt, thinks Wilt wasn't an unstoppable scorer thanks to Fatal9's 2 minute video of Wilt posting up on injured legs and rushed shots :applause: :roll:

This is classic, you actually tried to come here and try to stick up for that egregiously misleading video and dismiss facts about Wilt being injured for one of those games, boy aren't you quite the expert on Wilt's scoring capabilities from all that Wilt footage Fatal9 provided you with :oldlol:

[QUOTE=trueDS]You know I could tell the same: "if you don't see that mobility in first move (1967 game) and the one from 1:45 mark (1964 game) is the same, then you are blind"? Where such discussion will lead us? But anyway, thank you, I wasn't sure before, but now I'm that you are not interested in real discussion about Wilt, you just want to show that he was unstoppable scorer (or whatever you believe), no matter what reality really was. Good luck with that.[/QUOTE]

Just curious, have you seen the Kansas NCAA tournament highlights of Wilt Cavs put together? Wilt looks really good on there in all phases of the game for a center.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8JuK2dVky0[/url]

[QUOTE=Marchesk]Just curious, have you seen the Kansas NCAA tournament highlights of Wilt Cavs put together? Wilt looks really good on there in all phases of the game for a center.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8JuK2dVky0[/url][/QUOTE]

Yes, I have seen it and it's perfect example of Wilt's skills: great athlete, rebounder, shot blocker, pretty good passer, nice movement off the ball, limited as scorer - no postup game, mostly finished in transition, after ORB or after quick catch and shot fadeaway. And keep in mind he played vs weak competition here, If I'm not mistaken he made 53 shots on that video and only 3 of them were against black defenders (but still weaker and shorter than Chamberlain).

Well, I as well might share more info from that video. He made 53 shots (so 19.3% of his all made shots during that season! That's pretty significant sample) - 50.9% of them were transition, cuts and after offensive rebounds; postups (most of them vs short North Carolina defenders), fadeaways and other plays (3 total): 49.1%

I don't know how many he missed, but we know what his totals were during that season and we could assume he made around 75% of his attempts around the basket (so transition, cut and ORB plays) - in fact it was probably even higher (for example in Dippers/Phila sample he made 82.4% of his at rim shots).

So assuming 50.9% of his attempts during season in NCAA were transition, cut and orb plays and he made 75% of them, that means he was 140/408 on postups and fadeaways, so only 34.3%... yeah, very bad, but that's what we would expect from so weak shooter (look at his FT%) and postup player. (and BTW, in Dippers/Phila sample he was 30% from midrange.) And probably in reality he was even worse from postups and fadeaways, because I think he was better at rim finisher than 75%, especially in NCAA, where back then almost no one could compete with him.

Weak era. Stop promoting your channel here.

Fun video. I appreciate the share.

[QUOTE=trueDS][B]Yes, I have seen it and it's perfect example of Wilt's skills:[/B] great athlete, rebounder, shot blocker, pretty good passer, nice movement off the ball, limited as scorer - no postup game, mostly finished in transition, after ORB or after quick catch and shot fadeaway. And keep in mind he played vs weak competition here, If I'm not mistaken he made 53 shots on that video and only 3 of them were against black defenders (but still weaker and shorter than Chamberlain).[/quote]
As a 1st year player in college, yes... that's about it :oldlol:

[QUOTE]Well, I as well might share more info from that video. He made 53 shots (so 19.3% of his all made shots during that season! That's pretty significant sample) - 50.9% of them were transition, cuts and after offensive rebounds; postups (most of them vs short North Carolina defenders), fadeaways and other plays (3 total): 49.1%[/QUOTE]
That's great, we know how he scored in the NCAA tournament his first year playing in the NCAA, and if that NCAA tournament is any sort of coming together of how he played in pior games we probably get a somewhat decent picture how he scored throughout the rest of that season too. The problem here is, we (well... I guess I need to exclude you from this group) know that isn't how he played the game in the NBA. The low block was his bread and butter in the NBA, he was still learning how to play the game in the NCAA. Many of his trademark finishing moves aren't even in place yet in that NCAA footage (a-la his fingerrolls, or reverse layups) let alone the work he put in to get into position to release those shots (types of spins, fakes, drop steps). Wilt was primarily known for his defensive abilities in the NCAA, he wasn't realized as a truly dominant scorer until he hit the NBA. He was energetic and athletic, did in fact have a nice shooting touch unlike what you assert, but regardless was still raw as a sophomore in the NCAA knowing how he eventually played in the NBA. I pointed this out to people I shared the video with the day I uploaded that video because it is very obvious he still wasn't capable of doing the things he eventually did in the NBA.

[quote][B]I don't know[/B] how many he missed, but we know what his totals were during that season and we could [B]assume[/B] he made around 75% of his attempts around the basket (so transition, cut and ORB plays) - in fact it was probably even higher (for example in Dippers/Phila sample he made 82.4% of his at rim shots).

So [B]assuming[/B] 50.9% of his attempts during season in NCAA were transition, cut and orb plays and he made 75% of them, that means he was 140/408 on postups and fadeaways, so only 34.3%... yeah, very bad, but that's what we would expect from so weak shooter (look at his FT%) and postup player. (and BTW, in Dippers/Phila sample he was 30% from midrange.) And probably in reality he was even worse from postups and fadeaways, because I think he was better at rim finisher than 75%, especially in NCAA, where back then almost no one could compete with him.[/QUOTE]
Stop assuming, the time you spent wasting characters for you're worthless assumptions could have been spent looking up the actual data in the games and counting actual stats you lazy agenda driven f*ck.

And once more lettuce all remind ourselves: Footage of Wilt's first year in college is just that... footage of Wilts first year in college. It is not nor should ever be used as an umbrella of his scoring abilities several years later in the NBA. Unless of course, you've got an agenda on trying to diminish Wilt's offensive repertoire. Then by all means, try and use any handicap against him you can. First year NCAA footage, 2 minutes of less than a dozen post up clips where half the shots are comprised of rushed shots or injured legs, and so on. Use poor examples like these to draw conclusions about how Wilt scored 50 points per game in the NBA and became the most dominant scorer of all time. Write off everything else that might indicate he was a dominant scorer as 'edited' or w/e. :lol

[QUOTE=TheGreatRaptor]Weak era. [B]Stop promoting your channel here.[/B][/QUOTE]
OH NO a realgm mod! :lol

[QUOTE=trueDS]1. No need to bring rebounds (Wilt was arguably GOAT rebounder and no one is arguing with that) or assists, because we discuss only about SCORING ABILITIES.

2. I'm talking about his drop off in scoring efficiency in playoffs, so it really doesn't matter how many players averaged as much points as Wilt (besides his numbers are inflated by crazy 60s pace), but how different were his playoffs averages in comparison to his regular season PPG, FG% and TS%.

During, as you called is "his scoring prime", his playoffs and regular season scoring stats are:

[code]
60-66 PPG MPG FG% TS%
PO 32,8 47,5 50,5 52,0
RS 39,6 47,0 51,1 52,9
[/code]

So he was slightly worse efficiency wise, but much worse volume wise.
BTW, not only pace affectes his numbers, but also minutes - he would not have played so many minutes in any other era, so if we want to compare him with stars from different eras, good thing to do is give per 36 numbers. And in this case his PPG in playoffs per 36 was 24.9 with around +2/+3 TS% above league average. Very good results, but definitely not "unstoppable scorer".[/QUOTE]

Again, Chamberlain's post-season scoring and FG%'s declined SLIGHTLY, from his regular season numbers (and keep in mind, his horrid roster, which Hannum found out couldn't beat a team of scrubs in a pre-season scrimmage the very next year without Wilt, didn't make the playoffs in the 62-63 season, and in a season in which Chamberlain did EVERYTHING for that team, and scored 45 ppg that season.) BUT, he was facing the Celtic Dynasty in either his first round, or second round of the playoffs every season until Russell's final season in 68-69 (when it was his third round.)

So, yes, Wilt's stats declined. But, take a look at MJ's post-season numbers against the Pistons in his four post-season H2H's. His scoring and efficiency declined across the board. In a couple, it was dramatic. Same with a prime Shaq, and his five post-season series against the Spurs. Dramatic declines. And how about a peak KAJ, going up against a declining Thurmond in his three playoff H2H series? WAY below his season norms (same with Chamberlain in their two BTW.) Why?

But, no, you won't cut Chamberlain any slack, despite the fact that his post-season numbers against Russell, were generally very close (and in two cases, even higher)...and he faced him and his swarming Celtics, EIGHT times. Wilt seldom had the luxury of facing patsies, and when he did, like Beaty in '64, and Dierking in '67, (both decent to good centers BTW), he just annihilated them. Had he had Hakeem's "good fortune" to have been blown out in the first round as many times as Hakeem did, Wilt' scoring and especially his efficiencies, would have been considerably higher.

Yep. ONLY Chamberlain gets ripped...

[QUOTE=trueDS]Yes, I have seen it and it's perfect example of Wilt's skills: great athlete, rebounder, shot blocker, pretty good passer, nice movement off the ball, limited as scorer - no postup game, mostly finished in transition, after ORB or after quick catch and shot fadeaway. And keep in mind he played vs weak competition here, If I'm not mistaken he made 53 shots on that video and only 3 of them were against black defenders (but still weaker and shorter than Chamberlain).

Well, I as well might share more info from that video. He made 53 shots (so 19.3% of his all made shots during that season! That's pretty significant sample) - 50.9% of them were transition, cuts and after offensive rebounds; postups (most of them vs short North Carolina defenders), fadeaways and other plays (3 total): 49.1%

I don't know how many he missed, but we know what his totals were during that season and we could assume he made around 75% of his attempts around the basket (so transition, cut and ORB plays) - in fact it was probably even higher (for example in Dippers/Phila sample he made 82.4% of his at rim shots).

So assuming 50.9% of his attempts during season in NCAA were transition, cut and orb plays and he made 75% of them, that means he was 140/408 on postups and fadeaways, so only 34.3%... yeah, very bad, but that's what we would expect from so weak shooter (look at his FT%) and postup player. (and BTW, in Dippers/Phila sample he was 30% from midrange.) And probably in reality he was even worse from postups and fadeaways, because I think he was better at rim finisher than 75%, especially in NCAA, where back then almost no one could compete with him.[/QUOTE]


Again....fascinating, and likely a MYTH.

In the very limited footage that exists of a college Chamberlain, he is consistently nailing 10-12 turn-around shots, and even TWO STRAIGHT jump shots from beyond the FT line.

Oh, and how about this comment...

[url]http://wiltfan.tripod.com/quotes.html[/url]

[QUOTE]

Carl Braun said "He [Wilt] disorganizes you under the basket the same way [as Bill Russell, on defense]. With Wilt, of course, there's that offense on top of it, which is better than Russell's. He hit on all those jumpers."
"Yes, Wilt hit on those jumpers...Wilt did come into the league with a good touch from the outside, which made his early scoring that much more significant. He wasn't just dunking the ball then."

--Red Holzman. A View from the Bench. P.70
[/QUOTE]

Hmmm, so who do we believe? Someone who actually SAW Chamberlain play, or someone who didn't?

BTW, Wilt's play in the '62 ASG was most certainly more indicative of his overall skills than a highly edited (and with an obvious agenda) two minute video from a known Wilt-basher (and in which half of his scoring was deleted, and in another a Wilt is seen throwing up a horrible shot,.,,but no mention of that fact that it as the shot-clock expiring...)

And a prime Chamberlain just shelled players like Thurmond, Reed, Bellamy, Dierking, and Imhoff, to a FAR greater extent than peak KAJ did. My god, Wilt had games in which he outscored Thurmond by 38-15 and even 45-13 margins, while KAJ never topped 34 against him in some 40 H2H's. And how about Wilt's 66-67 season against a PEAK Thurmond? 20.8 ppg on a now KNOWN .633 FG% (and a post-season of 17.5 ppg on a .560 FG%). KAJ never approached those FG%'s against Nate in his entire career (and only in 73-74, when Nate was injured and on his last legs, did he finally get over 50% against him.)

Reed? Chamberlain had an entire SEASON, covering 11 games, in which he just castrated Willis. 39 ppg and on a known .531 FG% (in a league that shot .426 overall), including games in which he outscore Reed by margins of 41-8, 46-25, 52-23, and 58-28. You won't find KAJ with anyhwere near those numbers against Reed.

Bellamy? This is really laughable. In some 25 H2H's with Bellamy, KAJ had a high game of 41 (and again, Bellamy was on the decline.) A prime Chamberlain was routinely putting up 30-40-50 SEASONS against Bellamy (hell, he had two seasons, covering 10 games each, in which he averaged 43.7 ppg and 52.7 against him), with THREE games of 60+, and a high of 73.

And how about this? Just the year before KAJ joined the NBA, in 68-69, Wilt hung a 60 point game on Dierking, and a 66 point game (on 29-35 shooting BTW) on Fox. Kareem played against those two on numerous occasions, and...not even close. My god, in Wilt's 69-70 season, in his first nine games he was averaging 32.2 ppg on a .579 FG% (including a shelling of KAJ in every facet of the game in their only H2H before Wilt blew out his knee.) Kareem would average 28.8 ppg that season, and only had one season, in his 20 year career, which exceeded it (and just barely.)

A prime Chamberlain was a FAR greater offensive force than KAJ ever was.

A highlight video is not a very good representation of a player's ability because it compiles the best plays. I could probably make a 10-15 min footage of Javale McGee that makes him look like a GOAT center.

On the other hand, two halves of two random games are even a worse representation of a player IMO. With the highlights at least you know you're getting Wilt's best. With the latter you don't know what you're getting since these two games comprise the only unedited footage of a prime Chamberlain. And since we can't watch the other games we have little or no context to go by.

[QUOTE=dankok8]A highlight video is not a very good representation of a player's ability because it compiles the best plays. I could probably make a 10-15 min footage of Javale McGee that makes him look like a GOAT center.

On the other hand, two halves of two random games are even a worse representation of a player IMO. With the highlights at least you know you're getting Wilt's best. With the latter you don't know what you're getting since these two games comprise the only unedited footage of a prime Chamberlain. And since we can't watch the other games we have little or no context to go by.[/QUOTE]
No you couldn't. You don't understand basketball if you think you could. Clearly you're not aware of what kind of plays you are witnessing on the floor at any given moment if you think Javale has 15 minutes of plays that would make him look like the GOAT center. And his entire career exists on film. Only a random 2-4% of Wilt's career exists on film by my estimation. And besides you're missing the point. A scouting report video of his abilities is not the same as a highlight film to begin with. Career highlights are like Kobe's lob to Shaq, you know, pivotal career moments. Practically none of Wilt's career pivotal moments exist, most of his footage is just a random assortment of games he's played, and random clips of plays he's made. I can only think of one or two pivotal plays of his career lucky enough to exist on film and only 1 incomplete game (his 72 Lakers finals clinching game). A scouting video just covers his repertoire. Similar to what you see from draftexpress, though I intend to be more thorough than they are. It isn't an "OOHHHH MY" video that will just highlight the finish - it will try to highlight the entire play that unfolded. His resume speaks for itself.

[QUOTE=dankok8]A highlight video is not a very good representation of a player's ability because it compiles the best plays. I could probably make a 10-15 min footage of Javale McGee that makes him look like a GOAT center.

On the other hand, two halves of two random games are even a worse representation of a player IMO. With the highlights at least you know you're getting Wilt's best. With the latter you don't know what you're getting since these two games comprise the only unedited footage of a prime Chamberlain. And since we can't watch the other games we have little or no context to go by.[/QUOTE]

Except that, by those who watched Chamberlain, he came into the league with decent range. And we simply don't have any footage, other than a near full ASG, and in which Chamberlain was spectacular (42 points on 17-23 shooting), of a an early NBA Wilt. In seasons in which he averaged over 40 ppg. You simply can't tell me that a 40 ppg scorer over the course of 3-4 seasons, is not going to have been an unstoppable force.

As for McGee. Maybe five minutes.

And again, in Fatal's blatant and disgraceful footage...two halves, of two games, and in one, he was suffering from severe leg problems...and on top of that, he EDITED out half of Wilt's other scoring...

Again...a true POS.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]
A prime Chamberlain was a FAR greater offensive force than KAJ ever was.[/QUOTE]

Sure if you ignore the following. You have the numbers vs. rookie Reed, very young Thurmond who played less than 100 games as a starter, and you're ignoring the vast inflation of Wilt's numbers due to pace and minutes played.

I've always said Wilt's high scoring was a testament to his stamina more than to his dominance.

Who has a higher career FG%? Kareem.

Who has a higher career FT%? Kareem by a mile.

Who has a higher playoff ppg, FG%, and FT%. Kareem

I'm not really sure Wilt is a way better scorer. :no:

[QUOTE=dankok8]Sure if you ignore the following. You have the numbers vs. rookie Reed, very young Thurmond who played less than 100 games as a starter, and you're ignoring the vast inflation of Wilt's numbers due to pace and minutes played.

I've always said Wilt's high scoring was a testament to his stamina more than to his dominance.

Who has a higher career FG%? Kareem.

Who has a higher career FT%? Kareem by a mile.

Who has a higher playoff ppg, FG%, and FT%. Kareem

I'm not really sure Wilt is a way better scorer. :no:[/QUOTE]

Again, a PRIME "scoring" Chamberlain was FAR more dominant, and SKILLED, than KAJ ever hoped to be. Even his post-season scoring was higher. And please, don't compare eFG%'s, when Wilt's were attained in an era of much lower league averages. Oh, and completely ignore a 66-67 Wilt, who slaughtered a PEAK Thurmond, Russell, and Bellamy, as well as putting up a 24-24-8 .683 season. KAJ couldn't come within the other side of the Grand canyon of that efficiency.

Oh, and KAJ couldn't hit the ocean from a lifeboat against an aging Thurmond, either, while Chamberlain was trashing a PEAK Nate.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Again, a PRIME "scoring" Chamberlain was FAR more dominant, and SKILLED, than KAJ ever hoped to be. Even his post-season scoring was higher. And please, don't compare eFG%'s, when Wilt's were attained in an era of much lower league averages. Oh, and completely ignore a 66-67 Wilt, who slaughtered a PEAK Thurmond, Russell, and Bellamy, as well as putting up a 24-24-8 .683 season. KAJ couldn't come within the other side of the Grand canyon of that efficiency.

Oh, and KAJ couldn't hit the ocean from a lifeboat against an aging Thurmond, either, while Chamberlain was trashing a PEAK Nate.[/QUOTE]

Kareem had a 35/17/5 .574 season against Wilt, Thurmond, Cowens, Lanier, Hayes, Unseld, Haywood, Bellamy, Wicks, Lucas etc. In years Wilt scored 33-37 ppg he was never near Kareem's efficiency in 71-72 especially when we take free throws into account.

Again I would definitely argue that '71 to '73 Thurmond was better than '65 to '67 Thurmond. Better statistically, looks stronger, and more experienced.

Anyways believe what you want but no informed mind will say Wilt is FAR BETTER than Kareem or vice versa. It's very close.