cp3 vs kidd vs payton

[QUOTE=aj1987]:roll: :roll:

Again, whatever helps you sleep better at night. You really are as delusional as 3ball.

Since you're just too stupid to understand my points, I'll repost.

Yeah, if the Heat were healthy the Pistons do not make the Finals. [B]IF[/B] Kobe left his ego, he'd have 6 rings. It's not a 'fact'. Hypothetical scenario. The Pistons were an elite defensive squad, but not even close to being an ATG team. If you think that they're an ATG team, you simply haven't watched enough basketball.

You keep bringing up Rasheed and how he changed the offense, but the Pistons were still a garbage offense the next season. Somewhere around the 20th, IIRC.[/QUOTE]

Those aren't points...those are just baseless statements with no arguments or evidence behind them.

I disagree with everything above....so defend what you say. Explain how the Lakers are improving their offense against an all time great defensive team.

Explain why the Lakers still needed OT to win when Kobe was dominant and fed Shaq frequently throughout the game.

I'll be waiting for another terrible response...

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Those aren't points...those are just baseless statements with no arguments or evidence behind them.

I disagree with everything above....so defend what you say. Explain how the Lakers are improving their offense against an all time great defensive team.[/quote]
Do I have to teach you basketball now? Sigh! The Lakers' offense was stagnant for long stretches because Kobe was hogging the ball. Their role-players were completely out of it and Shaq himself was completely useless. If Kobe passes the ball more whenever he gets doubled, that would've kept the defense on its toes. Involving the role-players more would've helped a ton as well.


[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Explain why the Lakers still needed OT to win when Kobe was dominant and fed Shaq frequently throughout the game.[/quote]
Why did an ATG team like this season's Warriors, who are the #1 offense, need OT to beat the garbage ass Nets. 2OT against the mediocre Celtics as well.

As I said, watch the series. Was it Billups or RIP who scored 30 that game. I think it was both. Lets also not forget about their edge in rebounding as well.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I'll be waiting for another terrible response...[/QUOTE]
Well, 3ball lite. When you brush aside all arguments and cherrypick yours, everything might seem terrible.

[QUOTE=aj1987]Do I have to teach you basketball now? Sigh! The Lakers' offense was stagnant for long stretches because Kobe was hogging the ball. Their role-players were completely out of it and Shaq himself was completely useless. If Kobe passes the ball more whenever he gets doubled, that would've kept the defense on its toes. Involving the role-players more would've helped a ton as well.



Why did an ATG team like this season's Warriors, who are the #1 offense, need OT to beat the garbage ass Nets. 2OT against the mediocre Celtics as well.

As I said, watch the series. Was it Billups or RIP who scored 30 that game. I think it was both. Lets also not forget about their edge in rebounding as well.


Well, 3ball lite. When you brush aside all arguments and cherrypick yours, everything might seem terrible.[/QUOTE]


It's not cherry picking at all.

You are claiming the Lakers win if Kobe plays "like Kobe"...but what you are failing to realize is that the Lakers offense simply was not elite even when Kobe was playing "like Kobe"...

Here is some evidence.

The Lakers didn't have an elite offense all year.

When the Lakers played the Spurs, another elite defense, their offensive rating was 101.

Kobe definitely played..."like Kobe" in that series with 26 points on 53% TS

When the Lakers played the Rockets, a good defense, their offensive rating was 101.

Kobe played alright...put up 24 points on 51% TS


So...I'll keep asking. What makes you think Kobe is playing better than he did against the Spurs or Rockets? The Pistons defense was better equipped to make life harder on Kobe than either of those teams.

In addition to that, even if Kobe were to play as well or better than he had all playoffs, why do you think the Lakers offense as a team would jump up, quite considerably, over the level it was against the Spurs and Rockets?

It's not about the team struggling to win game 2. It's a direct example that contradicts what you said. Kobe played well above any realistic expectations for an entire series in game 2...and fed Shaq the ball. And yet, the Pistons were still right there in a game that could have gone either way.

Maybe you aren't grasping this...that matters because the Lakers played better than they could over the course of any stretch...and yet the Pistons still were just as good.

So not only do you have almost no evidence that Kobe is capable of playing like you claim, but even if he does...the game is a coin flip at best when he's playing as good as he possibly can.

The Lakers would have needed Kobe or Shaq to do something special consistently....combined with playing better defense than they proved capable in the finals.

Long story short, there is no justifiable reason to think the Lakers, a team that wasn't elite offensively all year, couldn't crack a 101 ortg against the Spurs/Rockets, and wasn't elite defensively either...was going to all of a sudden improve their offense against one of the best defenses ever.

Once again you provide no arguments other than stating the obvious that Kobe played poorly. LOL...we know he played poorly. The question isn't that...it's whether or not him playing like himself is rising their ortg at least 10 points better than it was in that series.

And the answer is obviously no. You probably realize that at this point, but you'll keep trying dig your way out of a hole that, unfortunately, you can't get out of.

And we are all just laughing at the stupid shit you say...:coleman:

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]It's not cherry picking at all.

You are claiming the Lakers win if Kobe plays "like Kobe"...but what you are failing to realize is that the Lakers offense simply was not elite even when Kobe was playing "like Kobe"...

Here is some evidence.

The Lakers didn't have an elite offense all year.

When the Lakers played the Spurs, another elite defense, their offensive rating was 101.

Kobe definitely played..."like Kobe" in that series with 26 points on 53% TS

When the Lakers played the Rockets, a good defense, their offensive rating was 101.

Kobe played alright...put up 24 points on 51% TS


So...I'll keep asking. What makes you think Kobe is playing better than he did against the Spurs or Rockets? The Pistons defense was better equipped to make life harder on Kobe than either of those teams.

In addition to that, even if Kobe were to play as well or better than he had all playoffs, why do you think the Lakers offense as a team would jump up, quite considerably, over the level it was against the Spurs and Rockets?

It's not about the team struggling to win game 2. It's a direct example that contradicts what you said. Kobe played well above any realistic expectations for an entire series in game 2...and fed Shaq the ball. And yet, the Pistons were still right there in a game that could have gone either way.

Maybe you aren't grasping this...that matters because the Lakers played better than they could over the course of any stretch...and yet the Pistons still were just as good.

So not only do you have almost no evidence that Kobe is capable of playing like you claim, but even if he does...the game is a coin flip at best when he's playing as good as he possibly can.

The Lakers would have needed Kobe or Shaq to do something special consistently....combined with playing better defense than they proved capable in the finals.

Long story short, there is no justifiable reason to think the Lakers, a team that wasn't elite offensively all year, couldn't crack a 101 ortg against the Spurs/Rockets, and wasn't elite defensively either...was going to all of a sudden improve their offense against one of the best defenses ever.

Once again you provide no arguments other than stating the obvious that Kobe played poorly. LOL...we know he played poorly. The question isn't that...it's whether or not him playing like himself is rising their ortg at least 10 points better than it was in that series.

And the answer is obviously no. You probably realize that at this point, but you'll keep trying dig your way out of a hole that, unfortunately, you can't get out of.

And we are all just laughing at the stupid shit you say...:coleman:[/QUOTE]
Read this, you literal retard:

Do I have to teach you basketball now? Sigh! The Lakers' offense was stagnant for long stretches because Kobe was hogging the ball. Their role-players were completely out of it and Shaq himself was completely useless. If Kobe passes the ball more whenever he gets doubled, that would've kept the defense on its toes. Involving the role-players more would've helped a ton as well.

Why did an ATG team like this season's Warriors, who are the #1 offense, need OT to beat the garbage ass Nets. 2OT against the mediocre Celtics as well.

As I said, watch the series. Was it Billups or RIP who scored 30 that game. I think it was both. Lets also not forget about their edge in rebounding as well.

[QUOTE=aj1987]Read this, you literal retard:

Do I have to teach you basketball now? Sigh! The Lakers' offense was stagnant for long stretches because Kobe was hogging the ball. Their role-players were completely out of it and Shaq himself was completely useless. If Kobe passes the ball more whenever he gets doubled, that would've kept the defense on its toes. Involving the role-players more would've helped a ton as well.

Why did an ATG team like this season's Warriors, who are the #1 offense, need OT to beat the garbage ass Nets. 2OT against the mediocre Celtics as well.

As I said, watch the series. Was it Billups or RIP who scored 30 that game. I think it was both. Lets also not forget about their edge in rebounding as well.[/QUOTE]



WHY WOULD THE LAKERS PLAY BETTER OFFENSE AGAINST THE PISTONS THAN THEY DID ALL YEAR AND IN THE PLAYOFFS?

You stupid ****ing moron....I'm referencing other series and the entire year....

Explain yourself you ****ing idiot.

What are you guys even debating? :oldlol:

That Kobe playing above average would have mobilized Detroit, and gave the Lakers a chance? I could buy that although I still don't think they win the series. Our issues were bigger than just Kobe playing horrible basketball, like not having Malone healthy. That really phucked us.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]WHY WOULD THE LAKERS PLAY BETTER OFFENSE AGAINST THE PISTONS THAN THEY DID ALL YEAR AND IN THE PLAYOFFS?

You stupid ****ing moron....I'm referencing other series and the entire year....

Explain yourself you ****ing idiot.[/QUOTE]
I'm done with your retarded ass. You can't even comprehend simple english. I'm not repeating myself a billion times for you.

[QUOTE= catch24]That Kobe playing above average would have mobilized Detroit, and gave the Lakers a chance? I could buy that although I still don't think they win the series. Our issues were bigger than Kobe just playing horrible basketball, like not having Malone healthy. That really phucked us[/QUOTE]
Yep. Malone not being 100% really hurt the Lakers as well.

[QUOTE=aj1987]I'm done with your retarded ass. You can't even comprehend simple english. I'm not repeating myself a billion times for you.


Yep. Malone not being 100% really hurt the Lakers as well.[/QUOTE]

It's not hard.

Explain why they'd get better than they were all year while playing against the best defense in the league...

Please explain it..

[QUOTE=90sgoat]Deandre Jordan >> Ervin Johnson
Blake > Kemp
Barnes << Schrempf
JJ = Hawkins

Supporting casts are about comparable imo.[/QUOTE]

First of Schrempf>>>>>>>Barnes

At least during their title run, Kemp was better than Kemp.

The bench however was grossly superior for the sonics.

I mean just look at these guys.

Hersey Hawkins > Reddick

Sam Perkins
Nate McMillan

That's a legit 7 man roster by any measure you can imagine.

[QUOTE=houston]No PG did more with less than Kidd. He was the main reason why Nets turn around as a franchise. His all around game what separate him from Payton and CP3. Even in 2011 Kidd was clearly the Mavs only playmaker that ran the offense plus he was they 3&D guy. Cats act like Curry was the only lightskin PG that was a great 3pt shooter that won a championship lol.



Truth be told Payton was overrated. People have revisionist about Payton. Dude was a underachiever and a headcase. He was on a team where they lost to a clearly inferior team in 94 and 95. Heck in 04 he was clearly one of main problem why the Lakers underachieve that year.


Cp3 is just a black Nash who plays defense. He don't have offensive game to take over like he should. Truth be told it hard for a PG to win as the game unless they have some offensive prowness with their game. But he is better than Payton cause he at least more of a pure PG than him.[/QUOTE]

Agree with Payton. Though it is worth pointing out that Kidd was whiter than Nash...I swear if people didn't tell me he was supposed to be black, I'd never have even thought it, lol.

As for CP, he is NOT a white nash (not that that is bad). CP is a MUCH better scorer and he does have the ability to takeover games. The real shame with Paul is that his two year peak was followed with injuries and people forget just how good it was those years and he was saddled with a team with an unproven West and he somehow made Chandler look like an offensive force. Sadly now that he does have teammates, he's got major knee issues and just isn't as explosive as he once was.

[QUOTE=aj1987]:roll: :roll:

Again, whatever helps you sleep better at night. You really are as delusional as 3ball.

Since you're just too stupid to understand my points, I'll repost.

Yeah, if the Heat were healthy the Pistons do not make the Finals. [B]IF[/B] Kobe left his ego, he'd have 6 rings. It's not a 'fact'. Hypothetical scenario. The Pistons were an elite defensive squad, but not even close to being an ATG team. If you think that they're an ATG team, you simply haven't watched enough basketball.

You keep bringing up Rasheed and how he changed the offense, but the Pistons were still a garbage offense the next season. Somewhere around the 20th, IIRC.[/QUOTE]

ok you keep saying this, but you're not explaining or adding any points. You're just making a statement.

[QUOTE=aj1987]I'm done with your retarded ass. You can't even comprehend simple english. [B]I'm not repeating myself a billion times for you.
[/B]

Yep. Malone not being 100% really hurt the Lakers as well.[/QUOTE]
.

Why do you keep repeating yourself? You once again have to explain why you think kobe passing more would have improve the offense THAT much and why the piston's defense wasn't a factor in the poor ball movement. I'm sorry but the role players couldn't hit a shot. Shaq couldn't get open. The pistons are a big reason WHY kobe didn't look good in that series.

So again, how are you evaluating kobe's poor play from great defense? This is why you have to explain more. You're trying to move this from a 5 game beating to a laker's WIN...that's a HUGE and I mean HUGE change.

[QUOTE=dhsilv]What did payton do with LESS?[/QUOTE]

Uhm... he got to the finals, got within a hair of winning the title.

:wtf:

Swear to god these new kids on this board don't even watch the NBA. Just throwing up on their keyboards.

[QUOTE=dhsilv].

Why do you keep repeating yourself? You once again have to explain why you think kobe passing more would have improve the offense THAT much and why the piston's defense wasn't a factor in the poor ball movement. I'm sorry but the role players couldn't hit a shot. Shaq couldn't get open. The pistons are a big reason WHY kobe didn't look good in that series.

So again, how are you evaluating kobe's poor play from great defense? This is why you have to explain more. You're trying to move this from a 5 game beating to a laker's WIN...that's a HUGE and I mean HUGE change.[/QUOTE]
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Do you guys just not bother reading posts anymore?

The Lakers' offense was stagnant for long stretches because Kobe was hogging the ball. Their role-players were completely out of it and Shaq himself was completely useless. If Kobe passes the ball more whenever he gets doubled, that would've kept the defense on its toes. Involving the role-players more would've helped a ton as well.

[QUOTE=LJJ]Uhm... he got to the finals, got within a hair of winning the title.

:wtf:

Swear to god these new kids on this board don't even watch the NBA. Just throwing up on their keyboards.[/QUOTE]
:oldlol: :applause:

[QUOTE=LJJ]Uhm... he got to the finals, got within a hair of winning the title.

:wtf:

Swear to god these new kids on this board don't even watch the NBA. Just throwing up on their keyboards.[/QUOTE]

He won a title, just not as a key player. He was a role player on a lakers team that was killed in a 5 game slaughtering, and he made the finals on a deep and VERY talented Sonics team that lost in what really wasn't a close series all be it they did go 6 to the 96 bulls in another series that was never winnable.

But the key word I used there was "LES" and that team did not have "LESS" of anything than Kidd or Paul has had. Unless you're claiming having Shaq and Kobe is less?