1994 Pippen should have been mvp

[QUOTE=RRR3;14028999]Roundball's ranks Pippen pretty similarly to where he's generally ranked tbh. He definitely is hyperfocused on this subject, because Pippen is his favorite player of all time and he's a stan, but he generally is making good points. I can't really demonize him for being a stan since everyone knows I'm an enormous LeBron stan.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, the people who have Pippen where the consensus has him are the biased, delusional, etc. people. The people who have Miller, who is 25-40 spots behind him on lists, are the true objective people!

It is just me, 97, Smoke these days up against an army of MJ stans. Frankly if they didn't spend every day going into every thread saying Pippen sucks we wouldn't need to discuss him nearly as much. Look at how they attacked this thread. Easily could have just said Hakeem deserved it but that's not why they enter these threads...they don't engage in discussion of the players involved. Just Pippen bashing, even deceitfully and hypocrtically so.

The agenda is as clear as day. 90 percent of Pippen haters have the same thing in common...

ESPN had Pippen slightly too high for me. I'd have to put pen to paper but he probably is in the 23-26 range for me. My big thought crime is having MJ #2 instead of #1 (I have LeBron even lower relative to the consensus, 4th versus the consensus of 2nd...). These guys are out there saying Ewing is better than LeBron or Curry is.

Where do all these people have Pippen? Behind Kyrie, Kemp we know. So that pushes him to the tail end of the top 100--at best.

[QUOTE]Here's the thing with Reggie vs Pippen...

Pippen is worse than Reggie offensively and in the clutch by a margin that exceeds Pippen's defensive value.

You're comparing a bonafide 1st option playoff performer ~ 24 ppg 120 ORTG w/ ultimate clutch...[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]relative to reggie he was poor.

1994 "peak MVP" pippen had a 104 ORTG in the playoffs. Compared to a 120 ORTG career average for Miller?

That's poor.

The contrast of clutch moments is just icing on the cake.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=RRR3;14029005]That's not what you said tho. See my point?[/QUOTE]

that's exactly what i said.

it was a direct comparison between the two for the whole post.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14029006]He's become paranoid about MJ stans yeah. I love how badly he gets 3ball tho[/QUOTE]

I think that's the good thing about it is that he counters the premier Jordan stan on the board. Most people would have given up seeing how bad and repetitive 3ball's arguments are.

0-3 in Game 7 of the ECF is clutch? 1-4 in the ECF, 0-1 in the finals. "Winning Time" ended with the Pacers losing.

Chris Paul is 1st in o rating, Miller 2, D. Jordan 3. The real GOATs! MJ 20th, LeBron is 39th. Shaq 106, Kobe 174. Meanwhile when Reggie actually played coaches were saying he wasn't even the best player on his team.

[QUOTE=tpols;14028990]that's what people miss.

Reggie was an above average defender in the playoffs especially man defense. He wasnt a guy you could pick on.

So the gap between the two on defense wasnt as big as it was for [B]offense... where scottie was very poor.[/B]

Bad efficiency... no volume... so unclutch a ROOKIE is tasked with taking the last second biggest shot of the game over him.

it just is what it is....[/QUOTE]
:coleman:

Tpols there's now way to read this other than you saying Pip was bad at offense.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14029032]0-3 in Game 7 of the ECF is clutch? 1-4 in the ECF, 0-1 in the finals. "Winning Time" ended with the Pacers losing.

Chris Paul is 1st in o rating, Miller 2, D. Jordan 3. The real GOATs! MJ 20th, LeBron is 39th. Shaq 106, Kobe 174. Meanwhile when Reggie actually played coaches were saying he wasn't even the best player on his team.[/QUOTE]
Chris Paul actually is one of the best offensive players of all time. ESPN ranking him 40th was blasphemy. I believe backpicks had him 20th or 19th which is probably about right. I could see him a little higher even. He's probably the least flawed player I've ever seen from a skillset standpoint.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14029032]0-3 in Game 7 of the ECF is clutch? 1-4 in the ECF, 0-1 in the finals. "Winning Time" ended with the Pacers losing..[/QUOTE]

Winning time: Reggie Miller vs the New York Knicks was about their battles with whom? Did they win against the Knicks in the end? Have you even watched the documentary or are you still waiting for them to make an Espn 30 for 30 about Pippen :roll:

I don't see how he can possibly counter 3ball.

3ball is a legitimate sociopath. You can't get to him, except when you rank LeBron or edit/delete his threads.

Roundball_Rock is a much worse, pretentious version of jlauber.

Miller was a shooter. That was it. He was great at it but he offered nothing as a passer or creator (part of offense). Nothing on defense. Nothing on the glass. He was 21/3/3 for his prime. When his shot was off, he was useless (as his team would learn in many key games). He lacked the skill set to handle a #1 option work load. How many screens can you run to get a guy who can't get open open? He took his 14 shots a game but there was always Smits, Person, Schrempf, or Rose there to be #1 in usage--and Miller sometimes was #3 or #4 in usage.

So he is the second GOAT offensive player ever but his coaches couldn't figure it out? Opposing coaches couldn't? Guys on the internet 25 years later know better?

Miller was Klay without the defense, without the scale (Miller's "efficiency" wouldn't hold up at 18 shots a game, for example).

[QUOTE]Chris Paul actually is one of the best offensive players of all time. ESPN ranking him 40th was blasphemy. I believe backpicks had him 20th or 19th which is probably about right[/QUOTE]

True but is he the offensive GOAT, as this stat suggests?

Here is some insight on Reggie from KBlaze in a thread weeks ago:

[QUOTE][B]At no point in the 90s would a single person outside his home market call Reggie the best wing after Jordan. You can find articles from Reggies prime with local writers saying Detlef(the 6th man) was the teams best player.

Coaches were picking dudes like Mookie Blaylock.[/B]

Stockton was more respected than Reggie.

[B]Pippen, Drexler, Grant Hill, Mitch and others would all have been taken over Reggie by every team[/B] in the nba. The Pacers didn’t thrive till[B] Larry Brown got there and told Reggie he wasn’t a superstar type who could win trying to take over games and made them more of an ensemble team[/B]. If I posted what Larry Brown said he had to sit Reggie down and tell him ish would be calling me a hater like I said it......[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]I could also ask [B]Larry Brown, George Karl, and Phil Jackson all of whom said at the time Reggie was his teams second or third best player. You ask nba coaches in like 94 to pick Mckey or Miller Reggie probably won’t win that[/B]. The only reason that sounds odd today is you not having been there to see lots of basketball lifers not be that impressed. [B]28 years old dead prime and the coaches take Mookie and John Starks. He ends up behind 6 guards In the East alone but magically 25 years later he’s I suppose the best guard in the league with Jordan retired[/B].....[/QUOTE]

Quotes from 1994 and 1995--right in the middle of Reggie's prime:

[QUOTE]It’s along the lines of asking peak Draymond or Klay....except 25 years ago they wouldn’t make full use of what guys like Klay could do. And Klay is a great defender. So it’s not exactly that but it’s along those lines. I’d take Reggie for today’s game no doubt. For 1993? I’ll just give you what the coaches said....

[B]Bulls coach Phil Jackson voted for McKey for the All-Star team, saying: "He's their best player. He's the reason they are where they are."
[/B]
And Indiana's defense starts with Derrick McKey.

"He's as good a defender as there is in the league," coach Larry Brown said. "He's a great all-around player. I don't know where we'd be without him."

"He's the best. He defends every night. He does whatever we need him to do to win," Brown said.

[B]While Brown and teammates call McKey the most important player on the team[/B], McKey was characteristically modest about his play following the win over Charlotte.

Derrick [B]McKey has settled in with the Pacers and become the catalyst through which all offensive plays are run[/B]. "People used to tell me Derrick didn't come to play every night," said [Larry Brown]. "He may not have come to play offensively, but he's come to play defensively in every single game I've seen. [B]He's the best all-around player I've ever coached[/B]."[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Hes one of several pacers that players, coaches, and writers flatly said were the best player on teams Reggie was on in his prime. What you feel about that with nerd stats a quarter century later obviously was not factored in.[/QUOTE]

[URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?480370-After-Jordan-who-was-the-BEST-perimeter-player-in-the-90s/page4"]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?480370-After-Jordan-who-was-the-BEST-perimeter-player-in-the-90s/page4[/URL]

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14029059]Here is some insight on Reggie from KBlaze in a thread weeks ago:





Quotes from 1994 and 1995--right in the middle of Reggie's prime:





[URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?480370-After-Jordan-who-was-the-BEST-perimeter-player-in-the-90s/page4"]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?480370-After-Jordan-who-was-the-BEST-perimeter-player-in-the-90s/page4[/URL][/QUOTE]

Dude cant formulate his own arguments :roll:

Already had a back and forth with Kblaze about that many years ago and seeing that you love to dig out old threads how about searching for my replies?

[QUOTE=Reggie43;14029064]Dude cant formulate his own arguments :roll:[/QUOTE]

3ball is worth reading.

Andre Roberson :roll:

The irony here? When Miller was asked who would want to be among the Dream Team III players he, like 5 of 11 players, selected Pippen. Why did Miller want to be Pippen? His quote was something like "Because he can score 4 points and dominate a game."

Gee, why would Reggie Miller admire a player who could dominate without scoring? It is obvious why.

More from KBlaze (bold added by me in those quotes):

[QUOTE]And yet....it takes people who weren’t there....to run some equations....to see it. Why do you think that is?

[B]Why do you think people who played and coached for decades watched him do it from feet away and didn’t think it was that special....when your blind numbers 25 years later says it was[/B]?

When [B]his coach is trying to defend him after one of his many many many many offensive no shows[/B] and says:

"I know people are going to say Reggie didn't do this or that, but I've always said it's a team thing for him," [B]said Brown. "He has trouble getting his own shot, beating people off the dribble. He's not what people make him out to be."

What do your numbers understand that he doesn’t?[/B]

His coach tells you...lay off....he’s not some super scorer who is gonna bring it every night. Stop expecting so much. That’s said in defense of him.

Why?

Because [B]Reggie would disappear all the time. You would forget he was there for 30 minutes as his team struggled to score. The narrative is that he would just turn it on and win them all these games late....except he won exactly
one big playoff series in 19 years[/B]. [B]People remember 6 things from ESPN and read some numbers on an irrelevant 25 points in 47 minutes while being destroyed in a series and make up whole new narratives over the shooting percentages on his largely ineffective totals. The people watching it closest were not nearly as impressed as your calculators are now.[/B]

[B]Reggie Millers career was usually 125 screens for 16-25 points and going home when games started to matter and players who could actually bring the ball across half court under a press or just post up and get a shot started to exert more influence.[/B]

[B]Reggie was nice. And he would look a lot nicer today. But there’s a reason people weren’t blown away[/B]. Those advanced numbers did not translate to a particularly dominant individual. He has moments to point to like every other hall of famer.....but generally speaking he wasn’t gonna matter when it was time to do shit worth remembering.

We remember 8 in 9. But it was of no real consequence. Like everything else you remember him doing.[/QUOTE]

This happened often. A lot of 10, 15, 20 point games where Reggie scored points but did nothing else that mattered on the court.

He would be a monster in today's game, though.