Teammate career rankings between Jordan and Lebron -- The Reality

So is "tpol" also "ImKobe"? Interesting that he and "ImKobe" used that 94 series to compare the two. We know that Pippen didn't have a servicable backup for Jordan (Pete Myers anyone?!?!?), so why is this a talking point? The better team won, who cares. Do you also think LeBron>Kobe because LeBron's teams had a winning record over the Lakers?

[QUOTE=insidious301;14113101]So is "tpol" also "ImKobe"? Interesting that he and "ImKobe" used that 94 series to compare the two. We know that Pippen didn't have a servicable backup for Jordan (Pete Myers anyone?!?!?), so why is this a talking point? The better team won, who cares.[/QUOTE]

No, I doubt it (based on their styles, writing, etc.--although their views are carbon copies of each other) they are both just 1-9ball's betas who I call 1-9ball Junior I and 1-9ball Junior II. They follow him from thread to thread echoing him and the same TP. They also base their "views" on every given topic via their agenda. You won't ever see them deviating from the MJ party line (or gooseman or these other guys). The irony? They love to call players betas but they are the ultimate examples of betas on ISH.

This is what the world has come to. 1-9ball has groupies. :lol

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14113121]No, I doubt it (based on their styles, writing, etc.--although their views are carbon copies of each other) they are both just 1-9ball's betas who I call 1-9ball Junior I and 1-9ball Junior II. They follow him from thread to thread echoing him and the same TP. They also base their "views" on every given topic via their agenda. You won't ever see them deviating from the MJ party line (or gooseman or these other guys). The irony? They love to call players betas but they are the ultimate examples of betas on ISH.

This is what the world has come to. 1-9ball has groupies. :lol[/QUOTE]

LeBron also beats Kobe H2H in individual numbers. Will they apply the same context? Time will tell! Thanks for clearing that up btw. I don't go around accusing any posters of alts or whatever, but it is weird that these people literally hate/love the same players. Equally. I don't agree with you on Giannis and where Jordan ranks all time (Jordan>Jabbar imo). These guys are like blues brothers though. Almost like they have a group text for their daily political campaign.

[QUOTE=insidious301;14113062]The scoring isnt important if you're not impacting the games. This is why data is surmises what goes on the court [U]better[/U] than any "one" raw stat. Scoring is nice, but if you aren't effecting the bottom line, who cares? This reason alone is why the impact numbers suggest Pippen's playmaking & defense were more valuable. Why the same stats you agreed with OP on also say Pippen>Ewing.[/QUOTE]

Again, all the top guys were 1st option Finals guys - MJ, Malone, Barkley, Shaq, Ewing, Hakeem, Drexler, Robinson - Pippen was a 2nd option and therefore isn't on that level

This is common knowledge.. no one compared Pippen to these guys until the lebron media took over.. heck, Drexler and Penny were compared to Jordan, while Pippen is nowhere near Jordan

[QUOTE=3ball;14113147]Again, all the top guys were 1st option Finals guys - MJ, Malone, Barkley, Shaq, Ewing, Hakeem, Drexler, Robinson - Pippen was a 2nd option and therefore isn't on that level

This is common knowledge[/QUOTE]

Another post where you miss the point. Scoring doesn't matter if it doesn't anchor the endgame. You cosigned Gooseman on all the same numbers that paint Prime Pip > Pat. Don't know why you're still confused, but I cleared this up pages ago.

Its just weird to me that people act like Pippen's defense and playmaking doesnt exist where he probably has the most value and focus only on scoring. But to be fair to them people on the otherside go overboard with the praise as well.

[B]Ewing and Pippen are pretty close...they both are TOP 10 PLAYERS OF THE 90's![/B]

MJ falling out ot the top 3 with every 1-9 ball post

LBJ, Bill Russell, Kareem

[QUOTE=insidious301;14113144]LeBron also beats Kobe H2H in individual numbers. Will they apply the same context? Time will tell! Thanks for clearing that up btw. I don't go around accusing any posters of alts or whatever, but it is weird that these people literally hate/love the same players. Equally. I don't agree with you on Giannis and where Jordan ranks all time (Jordan>Jabbar imo). These guys are like blues brothers though.[B] Almost like they have a group text for their daily political campaign[/B].[/QUOTE]

I have wondered about the group text. 1-9ball will post a thread, IMKobe and tpols will be there in minutes. This happens over and over again. These guys all echo the same TP. 1-9ball and his betas are the worst but gooseman, Indian_guy and half a dozen others all share the same basic views they do (look at the 45 page or so George-Pippen thread).

The agenda is this for 90's stars: every 90's star was great, flawless while Pippen sucked. Jordan played against the toughest teams under the toughest rules with the toughest defenses (except Pippen, even though he played the same teams). Jordan would average 45, 50 today; Pippen would barely get in the teens.

[QUOTE=Reggie43]Its just weird to me that people act like Pippen's defense and playmaking doesnt exist where he probably has the most value and focus only on scoring[/QUOTE]

They boil down every player to their PPG and/or their oRTG. To them, offense is just shooting. Playmaking, offensive rebounding, etc. doesn't count.

[QUOTE=Reggie43] But to be fair to them people on the otherside go overboard with the praise as well.[/QUOTE]

I don't think any of the "1-9" people actually believe it. I think they are merely trolling MJ stans. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=RoundMound]Ewing and Pippen are pretty close...they both are TOP 10 PLAYERS OF THE 90's!
[/QUOTE]

What is your top 10 for the entire decade? Mine is this:

1) Jordan
2) Hakeem
3) Malone
4) Barkley (Barkley ahead of Malone if we are talking peaks)
5) Robinson
6) Pippen
7) Ewing
8) Drexler
9) Shaq (have to slot him in somewhere, hard because he didn't play 30% the decade but had a high peak)
10) Richmond/T. Hardaway (Hardaway the higher peak, Richmond more consistency)

HM: Payton (wasn't a star for 40% of the decade, clearly top 10 peak wise), Miller, Mourning, Dumars, Price (no particular order here).

Speaking of Gooseman, what happened? He was online after I asked him to back up the OP. Did my line of questioning hurt his fragility again? He got a little defensive talking about "BPM", the same stat he originally advocated. That's a good list btw, Roundball. I think Barkley>Malone and Shaq > Ewing. Ewing had more All-NBA teams based on playing earlier, but Shaq also made the finals and from getgo was dominant. I actually thought he was a top 3-5 player from 1995 and on.

[QUOTE=insidious301;14112932]Ewing is related to your topic and here is why. He had less impact than Pippen who is "weak help" in your opinion. If that's the case then Jordan's competition was in fact mediocre. Your OP doesn't just list BPM either, so don't make things up. We see metrics ORTG-WS48 there which all favor Prime Pippen > Ewing. Back up your claims.[/quote]

The numbers I posted are career numbers. Cherry-picking Pippen's best years as second-option while coattail riding with GOAT player with GOAT team versus first options is not a good argument for you. Pippen's career stats are not better than Ewing's. Ewing bests him in PER, WS/48, eFG%, TS%. Pippen does have a superior career OBPM, but he also has a higher career OBPM than Hakeem, another center that played in the same era and had the same prime as Ewing, so what? Does that therefore mean Pippen > Hakeem on offensive? Please indulge me and attempt to make that argument. All it means is that OBPM favors Pippen's perimeter play over post play. Raw number tell the real story when comparing different positions (something which BPM cannot do), and Ewing/Hakeem blow Pippen away there.

[quote]
That isn't true. You used it here to say LeBron's help > Jordan. Now you're running away from your own words.[/quote]

Lebron's teammates overall have clearly been better than Jordan's. Are you arguing differently? Make your case. I must say I don't see how this is even a debate though. The stats depict Lebron's career as serial team-hopper who has played with half the all-stars in the league, Finals MVP's, MVP's, scoring champs, and multiple guys with top 5 PER's. All told this teammates just in the last decade account for over 60 total all-star selections.[B][SIZE=7] Sixty.[/SIZE][/B] Lol, there are so many you can't keep up with them all. How many all-star teammates did Jordan play with in his career? Even in little Pippy's so-called prime, he failed to make the all-star team in a couple of championship seasons.

[quote]
No, the facts say Pippen bested Prime Ewing from a 9 year span. When they were at their best too. So the facts and evidence are all on my side, not yours. We also know the same numbers you agreed with OP on are the ones that paint Pippen being more impactful as a player. And thus, unequivocally better.[/QUOTE]

Pippen literally never bested Ewing at anything in his entire career. Jordan and the Bulls beat the Ewing and the Knicks. That's it. The one time Pippen's Bulls went up against prime Ewing and the Knicks Pippen quit on the bench and watched a rookie save the season. Bulls go down 0-3 and likely get swept without Kukoc's heroics. At the end of the day, they were a second-round level playoff team that got eliminated by the very player that you claim to be inferior to Pippen. Great argument you have there. :facepalm

[QUOTE=insidious301;14113322]Speaking of Gooseman, what happened? He was online after I asked him to back up the OP. Did my line of questioning hurt his fragility again? He got a little defensive talking about "BPM", the same stat he originally advocated. That's a good list btw, Roundball. I think Barkley>Malone and Shaq > Ewing. Ewing had more All-NBA teams based on playing earlier, but Shaq also made the finals and from getgo was dominant. I actually thought he was a top 3-5 player from 1995 and on.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, Shaq is tricky. Top 3-5 player from 1995-1999, probably #2 in 98' and #1 in 99', but he didn't play at all for 30% of the decade so he is tricky to classify on a decade long list. I agree with Barkley over Malone peak wise. I just think Malone over Barkley from 1994-1999>Barkley's edge over Malone from 1990-1993. Of course career wise it is closer because then you are talking late 80's to 1993 for Barkley and his peak was better and when both were at their bests the consensus was Barkley was better.

"Gooseman" probably was logged into his other accounts. :lol

[QUOTE=goozeman;14113374]The numbers I posted are career numbers. Cherry-picking Pippen's best years as second-option while coattail riding with GOAT player with GOAT team versus first options is not a good argument for you. Pippen's career stats are not better than Ewing's. Ewing bests him in PER, WS/48, eFG%, TS%. Pippen does have a superior career OBPM, but he also has a higher career OBPM than Hakeem, another center that played in the same era and had the same prime as Ewing, so what? Does that therefore mean Pippen > Hakeem on offensive? Please indulge me and attempt to make that argument. All it means is that OBPM favors Pippen's perimeter play over post play. Raw number tell the real story when comparing different positions (something which BPM cannot do), and Ewing/Hakeem blow Pippen away there.



Lebron's teammates overall have clearly been better than Jordan's. Are you arguing differently? Make your case. I must say I don't see how this is even a debate though. The stats depict Lebron's career as serial team-hopper who has played with half the all-stars in the league, Finals MVP's, MVP's, scoring champs, and multiple guys with top 5 PER's. All told this teammates just in the last decade account for over 60 total all-star selections.[B][SIZE=7] Sixty.[/SIZE][/B] Lol, there are so many you can't keep up with them all. How many all-star teammates did Jordan play with in his career? Even in little Pippy's so-called prime, he failed to make the all-star team in a couple of championship seasons.



Pippen literally never bested Ewing at anything in his entire career. Jordan and the Bulls beat the Ewing and the Knicks. That's it. The one time Pippen's Bulls went up against prime Ewing and the Knicks Pippen quit on the bench and watched a rookie save the season. Bulls go down 0-3 and likely get swept without Kukoc's heroics. At the end of the day, they were a second-round level playoff team that got eliminated by the very player that you claim to be inferior to Pippen. Great argument you have there. :facepalm[/QUOTE] :roll::roll::roll:

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14113209]I have wondered about the group text. 1-9ball will post a thread, IMKobe and tpols will be there in minutes. This happens over and over again. These guys all echo the same TP. 1-9ball and his betas are the worst but gooseman, Indian_guy and half a dozen others all share the same basic views they do (look at the 45 page or so George-Pippen thread).

The agenda is this for 90's stars: every 90's star was great, flawless while Pippen sucked. Jordan played against the toughest teams under the toughest rules with the toughest defenses (except Pippen, even though he played the same teams). Jordan would average 45, 50 today; Pippen would barely get in the teens.



They boil down every player to their PPG and/or their oRTG. To them, offense is just shooting. Playmaking, offensive rebounding, etc. doesn't count.



I don't think any of the "1-9" people actually believe it. I think they are merely trolling MJ stans. :oldlol:



What is your top 10 for the entire decade? Mine is this:

1) Jordan
2) Hakeem
3) Malone
4) Barkley (Barkley ahead of Malone if we are talking peaks)
5) Robinson
6) Pippen
7) Ewing
8) Drexler
9) Shaq (have to slot him in somewhere, hard because he didn't play 30% the decade but had a high peak)
10) Richmond/T. Hardaway (Hardaway the higher peak, Richmond more consistency)

HM: Payton (wasn't a star for 40% of the decade, clearly top 10 peak wise), Miller, Mourning, Dumars, Price (no particular order here).[/QUOTE]

[B]Mine is pretty close to yours:

1-MJ
2-Hakeem
3-Sir Charles
4-Malone
5-Robinson
6-Shaq
7-Ewing
8-Drexler
9-Pippen
10:11-Stockton/Payton

HMs: Hill, Kidd, Richmond, Kemp, Miller, Mourning, Webber, Coleman, Baker etc[/B]

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14113416]Yeah, Shaq is tricky. Top 3-5 player from 1995-1999, probably #2 in 98' and #1 in 99', but he didn't play at all for 30% of the decade so he is tricky to classify on a decade long list. I agree with Barkley over Malone peak wise. I just think Malone over Barkley from 1994-1999>Barkley's edge over Malone from 1990-1993. Of course career wise it is closer because then you are talking late 80's to 1993 for Barkley and his peak was better and when both were at their bests the consensus was Barkley was better.

"Gooseman" probably was logged into his other accounts. :lol[/QUOTE]

[IMG]https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2FpHMtogPBHC7Cg%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1&nofb=1[/IMG]

Wait! Ya'll really believe Pippen > Shaq? :oldlol: :roll: Here, let me make this easy for you. As long as oxygen is pumping through Shaq's lungs and he is an NBA uniform, he is better than Pippen any year, any decade, any century. :oldlol: