Jokic is the 4th best player of all time

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14989457]Does it advance the argument for another player if he's a great defender?[/QUOTE]

Obviously

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14989459]Obviously[/QUOTE]
So going back to olajuwon, he has a few 27 ppg seasons. Jokic is better offensively, but it's that gap enough to make up for Olajuwon being one of the fastest defenders of all time, whereas Jokic as a defender is about average, maybe a little above that but definitely not one of the greatest ever?

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14989464]So going back to olajuwon, he has a few 27 ppg seasons. Jokic is better offensively, but it's that gap enough to make up for Olajuwon being one of the fastest defenders of all time, whereas Jokic as a defender is about average, maybe a little above that but definitely not one of the greatest ever?[/QUOTE]

Yes.

Jokic this year is top 3 (per game) in points, rebounds, assists, steals, deflections, all while having the highest TS% in the league by a long margin for any volume scorers AND he is has the second best assist/TO ratio for high volume passers.

Jokic's peak is going on five years as the best player in the league.

I mean, do you rank Magic above Hakeem? If yes, then Jokic is ahead too.

Magic won 5 championships. Piling up trophies like that puts him at a higher level. To be fair I acknowledge he wasn't a great defender either but 5 championships as best player is the definition of dominance.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14989545]Magic won 5 championships. Piling up trophies like that puts him at a higher level. To be fair I acknowledge he wasn't a great defender either but 5 championships as best player is the definition of dominance.[/QUOTE]
You're using team accomplishments to determine who the better individual player is, literally the most flawed metric NBA fans use, esp if we're talking strictly peak play. Kareem was also definitely the Lakers best player that first year they won together, and could be argued for 1 or 2 other titles as well.

Magic would have 1 title at best like Jokic with this Denver team, and even then I'm not convinced he'd be able to duplicate what Jokic did against Phoenix that year.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14989547]You're using team accomplishments to determine who the better individual player is, literally the most flawed metric NBA fans use, esp if we're talking strictly peak play. Kareem was also definitely the Lakers best player that first year they won together, and could be argued for 1 or 2 other titles as well.

Magic would have 1 title at best like Jokic with this Denver team, and even then I'm not convinced he'd be able to duplicate what Jokic did against Phoenix that year.[/QUOTE] You don't build a team around magic the same way you do around Jokic. They might not even have one ring because they'd have a gasping hole at center. That isn't relevant. The Chamonix absolutely are relevant because they're the ultimate validation of a player's greatness. It doesn't mean that a player without them is not but if you take away championships then why would Kobe be regarded as the greatest wing of his era? What puts Curry over Lillaird? We're judging a resume. It matters.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14989545]Magic won 5 championships. Piling up trophies like that puts him at a higher level. To be fair I acknowledge he wasn't a great defender either but 5 championships as best player is the definition of dominance.[/QUOTE]

My whole thread isn't about "resumes".

Also did you just say Magic won 5 rings as the best player on his team? What the **** are you smoking???

Honestly I'm done responding to you, your takes in this thread are atrocious.

Since when did GOAT discussions ignore rings? Take your ball and go home if you're so sensitive you apparently can't deal with a debate.

The guy is barely top 20, lay off the drugs. He's beaten 1 50 win team his entire playoff career, which is pretty pathetic for a 30 year old ATG.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14989727]Since when did GOAT discussions ignore rings? Take your ball and go home if you're so sensitive you apparently can't deal with a debate.[/QUOTE]

Yeah we should just ignore rings and have Wilt as the GOAT again because he dominated the RS more than anyone else in league history, and he was an elite defender. Jokic is in a weird spot where he's ATG offensively but how many ATG centers are average on the defensive end? And before someone tries to argue stats with me, Denver is bottom 10 on defense this year and they're better on D in the non-Jokic minutes.

Omg Jokic 60pt triple double. I change my mind he’s the best player ever! And he won’t stop.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14989886]Yeah we should just ignore rings and have Wilt as the GOAT again because he dominated the RS more than anyone else in league history, and he was an elite defender. Jokic is in a weird spot where he's ATG offensively but how many ATG centers are average on the defensive end? And before someone tries to argue stats with me, Denver is bottom 10 on defense this year and they're better on D in the non-Jokic minutes.[/QUOTE]

Is he even average? Some random bum from the bench casually has season-careers #s on him on the regular. Wouldn't be surprised if Post drops 20-25 tonight because Jokic is on the other side. :lol

[QUOTE=hold this L;14989857]The guy is barely top 20, lay off the drugs. He's beaten 1 50 win team his entire playoff career, which is pretty pathetic for a 30 year old ATG.[/QUOTE]

:roll:

You guys keep trying to go the conventional "resume" route of ring counting which is lame. Remember, MJ was crowned GOAT with just one ring.

This thread is not a "GOAT" conversation, which is much more than just on court impact. I am referring to on-court impact. Jokic is at least top 5 all time, I mean the guy is literally number 1 ALL TIME in a ton of advanced stats, literally ahead of MJ.

No one has lead the ENTIRE league in so many advanced stats for almost FIVE years now and not automatically been considered a top 10 player of all time. We don't need on paper resumes to determine this. The league is LUCKY the Jokic's best teammates were literally injured and unavailable in the 2021 and 2022 playoffs.

[QUOTE=hold this L;14989906]Is he even average? Some random bum from the bench casually has season-careers #s on him on the regular. Wouldn't be surprised if Post drops 20-25 tonight because Jokic is on the other side. :lol[/QUOTE]

Wow, a Curry stan trying to slam another player's defense? You guys are retarded.

Oscar Robertson had an amazing stretch from a statistical standpoint. I wonder if social media existed then what his place in fans hearts would be.