Better at basketball, Jokić or Kobe?

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15030960]Did you seriously just try to equate Kobe's '02 Finals, where they beat up on a scrub team that had literally zero chance of beating them, with Shaq averaging his usual monster 36/12, to Wade's '06 where he dragged the Heat back from the dead virtually singlehandedly averaging 40 over the final 4 games outscoring Shaq by over 20 for the series?

That's one of the wildest takes I have ever read :lol With any context and frankly just by the statline those Finals are genuinely tiers apart[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying it was better. I'm saying it gets overlooked. Even his 2009 performance gets overlooked. Both series he had a better +/- than Wade in 2006. And 2006 was a big controversy regarding how the refs officiated Wade.

In 2009, for example, the Lakers' offense would often ran flat once Kobe sat down for the entirety of the playoffs. Kobe's +/- in the finals was +49, 11th all time amongst players that had a finals with 5 or fewer games.

I think Kobe has a lot of negatives in his finals performances (2004 being an obvious example), but downplaying all of them isn't fair. In addition, having to come back from 0-2 shouldn't be viewed as better than a sweep. If you're the more dominant team, then that's not to your detriment, it's to your credit. I think this idea has become more prevalent as time has gone on. Even I made a thread a while back where I labeled the 3-1 comeback in 2016 as the best chip ever. You shouldn't get brownie points for being down 3-1.

[QUOTE]And imho record aside, Jokic beating the Suns & Lakers in 2023 was as difficult as any pairing of teams Kobe beat on his way to the Finals from 08-10.[/QUOTE]

It's easy to negate the entire sample and focus on a subset, but even then, I disagree. Suns had just added KD so there's issues of chemistry and the flaws obviously played themselves out long term. It's also convenient to leave out the finals where the Lakers faced Boston, twice. And also, the Lakers in 2023 weren't a tremendous threat at all. Yea they beat the defending champs, but I think GS in 2023 is more akin to GS in 2024 than they were in 2022.

Op is a white supremest

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031288]That’s what happens when you’re being guarded by D’Angelo Russell and left open (Darvin Ham stupidly told them to go under screens on Murray). Quit deflecting from the fact that Jokic didn’t need as much help as your hero.[/QUOTE]

Jamal Murray left open? Who tf is leaving him open? Who is ANYONE leaving open right now?

Newsflash genius, nobody gets "left open" anymore unless they're a really subpar shooter. If Murray is getting wide open looks then it's a combination of ball movement, floor spacing and Yolk being a magician.

But that's irrelevant anyway, because Murray doesn't need open looks. He's one of the few players in the league that can actually break you down 1 on 1. Close to top ten. At his absolute best he has the ball on a string and no one can stop him. We've seen it. It's why he's so valuable for Denver down the stretch. When he doesn't show up, Denver loses those games more often than not. At least when it came to that Thunder series they just had a really tough time closing out some of those games.

If Kobe is in the lineup, I'm giving them way more of a chance. And that's not me speculating, it's because we've seen him change the course of a series time and time again for a nearly a whole decade. He's proven. Which is why it's fukking retarded to compare a guy that just won his first title to someone with five fukking rangz. Let the man PROVE he belongs in this conversation first.

It can't just ALWAYS be about stats stats stats. Let alone trying to compare stats across [B]timelines[/B].

[QUOTE=Baller234;15030963]Lol.

So when someone dares to suggest that Kobe is better than you thought he was, it's because there's a secret agenda or bias. But when you guys suggest Kobe is some overrated hack, that's totally irrefutable because you guys just know more than everyone else.

Yolk is an amazing player and he would be great in any era, but you're comparing numbers across different timelines that have no business being compared in the first place. And even if you wanna argue that Yolk is the better offensive player, which is debatable, that still leaves defense. Kobe was elite on both sides of the ball. Yolk on defense is a sorry sack of shit and probably gives up 8-10 points a game due to sheer lack of effort.

Kobe never played in Yolk's era and Yolk never played in Kobe's, so we'll never know what their "numbers" would have been, nor do I care. I care about what they bring to the court as basketball players. Yolk is basically Larry Bird but with zero quickness and zero ability to penetrate. He's GREAT, but that's what he is. A bigger, a slower Larry Bird that is more limited 1 on 1 and doesn't play defense.[/QUOTE]

He doesn't get enough credit for these things. Not only did he dominate the height of the defensive era, but he also did it in an era of any iteration of guards — Vince, Wade, Pierce, AI, Allen, Spree, Houston, TMac, Iso Joe, Reggie, Richardson, Rip, etc. He ran a gauntlet nearly every year and put together a solid 14 prime years.

This doesn't take anything away from Jokic, but none of this is ever mentioned when people discuss Kobe's legacy, but they forget this is a major part of why he was so great.

[QUOTE]Meanwhile what's the worst thing you can say about Kobe. He has a bit of an ego and might take some ill advised shots. Okay fine, other than that he has no weaknesses or flaws in his game. Whatever perceived flaw you wanna harp on doesn't matter because ultimately it didn't matter. He won in spite of it.[/QUOTE]

Overshooting is a flaw and he had it. That being said, the Lakers were perennial contenders nearly every year with him as a starter — a legit threat to win the chip outside of a few. And he went on to go to the finals 3 times, winning 2 if not for a manufactured superteam in Boston in 2008 [I]without[/I] Shaq

If that doesn't spell ridiculous greatness, then idk what does. MJ never won without Scottie. And prime Scottie > prime Gasol. Magic never won without Kareem. Kareem needed Magic and Big O. Granted, none of this (at least in my mind) diminishes from them, but it [I]does[/I] say a lot about Kobe.

Even in 2000 when the series was 2-1 in Indy with an opportunity to tie it 2-2, it was Kobe who took over in the OT when Shaq fouled out. And that was an underwhelming finals overall. Indy ended up winning game 5. Who knows how the series looks if Kobe isn't in game 4 to win it.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15030967]I didn’t make up RAPM, xRAPM, or any similar stats. They are based on lineup data. You seem upset that Kobe had provably less impact than Jokic. Imagine Kobe trying to win a ring with the Nuggets roster in 2023, he would have lost in the first round lol.[/QUOTE]

Against a 42 win team like Minnesota? I mean, I suppose anything could happen, but I'm skeptical. And I'm not sure why the Nuggets' roster was so bad?

Murray put up 26/6/7/2 on 57% TS% in the playoffs. Kobe getting 33/6/5/3 on 65% TS% in the WCF from a teammate can't be all that bad.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15030983]:oldlol:

This was a known thing. And to be honest, I don't really blame him. He had to conserve some energy on defense because he had such a big offensive role, especially when Shaq was gone. Phil Jackson most of the time would put Kobe on the weakest offensive player to conserve energy. He did this to MJ as he got older as well. Pretty much every great guard in history saw their defense suffer a little as their offense took off.

T-Mac was a solid defender when he was younger, by the time he was dominating in Orlando his defense was non existent at times. Harden was a solid defender in OKC, by the time he got to Houston he was atrocious on defense. When Kawhi peaked as an offensive player, he was no longer the defender he was in previous years. Stuff like this is very common among great scoring guards.[/QUOTE]

Yea but you're jumping off a cliff with Kobe whereas you're saying the other guys are just not the same as their earlier iterations. I also highly disagree that Kobe was "lazy" defensively. I don't recall that at all, and I watched his entire career from start to finish.

I'm sure there may have been times where one could classify it as such, but that's any aging player like you said. That being said, Kobe, like Kawhi after his SAS days, was still a solid defender, right up until around 2010. Was he 1999-2003 Kobe, or even 2004-2008? No. But that doesn't mean he was a liability like Jokic is. The two are simply not the same in this regard and trying to diminish Kobe's defense because he won All-Defensive 1st Team honors that he shouldn't have doesn't change that.

I also disagree about T-Mac. When he was with Orlando, he was a solid defensive player. His defense really became diminished with his injuries, maybe his last year with Orlando, but definitely with Houston.

Harden yea but he wasn't old. Harden joined Houston at 23. And even Kawhi wasn't old. He joined Toronto at 27.

This thread is way too long.

The answer is pretty clearly Jokic at this point.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;15031429]Even in 2000 when the series was 2-1 in Indy with an opportunity to tie it 2-2, it was Kobe who took over in the OT when Shaq fouled out. And that was an underwhelming finals overall. Indy ended up winning game 5. Who knows how the series looks if Kobe isn't in game 4 to win it.[/QUOTE]

And he did it with such poise, that's really the thing.

Guys today claim they want the ball but they settle for bullshit. They gamble on a long three. Very few players demand the ball and have an actual plan to back it up. Right now there's maybe a HANDFUL of guys in the league you could say that about. Guys who could almost guarantee themselves at worst a decent midrange look. FFS the majority of today's players don't even have a back to the basket game. Kobe could face you up, he could back you down, he could pull up, he could turnaround, fadeaway, blow by you, he could fake you, juke you, spin on you... the whole gamut. I was never in the cult of Kobe. Well aware of the dings on his resume. Well aware that if Pau never gets traded to the Lakers we are talking about his career in a different light. Well aware he had a piss poor Game 7 against Boston. You still can't deny the results. You can't deny what he brought to the table as a player. More often than not, Kobe was the reason his teams won.

Last thing, something people often overlook. The more you win... the MORE pressure there is. Look at Bron, he was a STUD in the playoffs during the 2000's. He DOMINATED some teams. Look at how AGGRESSIVE he was against Detroit in that famous ecf game. Part of that is because there were less expectations. He was playing with house money. When he got to Miami and he was EXPECTED to perform, you saw what happened. The moment got too big for him. His own fault. He put too much pressure on himself.

Kobe was never AFRAID to perform. Say what you will, he had some off nights, but he was never afraid to be the guy. You were going to live or die with him. He took on that burden. If you are someone who claims to be the best, then that is the guy I want on my team. You're the guy making the big bucks, winning the game and closing the deal should be on YOU.

Anyway that's my rant. I have Kobe extremely high all time. I think I could make a case for anywhere between #2-6. Really only a decimal point fraction of players I would draft before him. His 1 on 1 play is too valuable.

Bawler just said Kobe had a case for number 2 :roll: :roll: :roll:

Here are Kobe's finals stats

2000 - 15.6 ppg | 39 fg%
2001 - 24 ppg | 41.5 fg% | 50 TS%
2002 - 27 ppg | 51 fg% | 62 TS%
2004 - 23 ppg | 38 fg% | 46 TS%
2008 - 26 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 50.5 TS%
2009 - 32 ppg | 43 fg% | 52.5 TS%
2010 - 29 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 52.8 TS%



Here are Kobe's game seven stats.

44.2 MPG
22.2 points
FG 38.9%
FT 67.3%
8 RPG
5 APG
1 SPG
1.3 BPG





Here are Kobe's stats when facing elimination.

22.3 PPG
5.8 RPG
3.5 APG
1.3 SPG
1.3 BPG
on a 50.3 TS

and his teams went 9-10 in those games.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15031447]Here are Kobe's finals stats

2000 - 15.6 ppg | 39 fg%
2001 - 24 ppg | 41.5 fg% | 50 TS%
2002 - 27 ppg | 51 fg% | 62 TS%
2004 - 23 ppg | 38 fg% | 46 TS%
2008 - 26 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 50.5 TS%
2009 - 32 ppg | 43 fg% | 52.5 TS%
2010 - 29 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 52.8 TS%



Here are Kobe's game seven stats.

44.2 MPG
22.2 points
FG 38.9%
FT 67.3%
8 RPG
5 APG
1 SPG
1.3 BPG





Here are Kobe's stats when facing elimination.

22.3 PPG
5.8 RPG
3.5 APG
1.3 SPG
1.3 BPG
on a 50.3 TS

and his teams went 9-10 in those games.[/QUOTE]
41.1 TS% in the 2000 finals btw. But sure he’s number two all time :oldlol:

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15031447]Here are Kobe's finals stats

2000 - 15.6 ppg | 39 fg%
2001 - 24 ppg | 41.5 fg% | 50 TS%
2002 - 27 ppg | 51 fg% | 62 TS%
2004 - 23 ppg | 38 fg% | 46 TS%
2008 - 26 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 50.5 TS%
2009 - 32 ppg | 43 fg% | 52.5 TS%
2010 - 29 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 52.8 TS%



Here are Kobe's game seven stats.

44.2 MPG
22.2 points
FG 38.9%
FT 67.3%
8 RPG
5 APG
1 SPG
1.3 BPG





Here are Kobe's stats when facing elimination.

22.3 PPG
5.8 RPG
3.5 APG
1.3 SPG
1.3 BPG
on a 50.3 TS

and his teams went 9-10 in those games.[/QUOTE]

I'm curious, what does "facing elimination" mean?

For example, 2nd round against the Mavs in 2011, they were swept that series. Is Game 4 included in that? Because that game was over before halftime.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031453]I'm curious, what does "facing elimination" mean?

For example, 2nd round against the Mavs in 2011, they were swept that series. Is Game 4 included in that? Because that game was over before halftime.[/QUOTE]
Yes that game counts it was facing elimination. It’s exactly what it sounds like. And your hero was DEE-readful in those games. “Top 2” doe :oldlol:

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15031447]Here are Kobe's finals stats

2000 - 15.6 ppg | 39 fg%
2001 - 24 ppg | 41.5 fg% | 50 TS%
2002 - 27 ppg | 51 fg% | 62 TS%
2004 - 23 ppg | 38 fg% | 46 TS%
2008 - 26 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 50.5 TS%
2009 - 32 ppg | 43 fg% | 52.5 TS%
2010 - 29 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 52.8 TS%



Here are Kobe's game seven stats.

44.2 MPG
22.2 points
FG 38.9%
FT 67.3%
8 RPG
5 APG
1 SPG
1.3 BPG





Here are Kobe's stats when facing elimination.

22.3 PPG
5.8 RPG
3.5 APG
1.3 SPG
1.3 BPG
on a 50.3 TS

and his teams went 9-10 in those games.[/QUOTE]
Career elimination game numbers

[IMG]https://fadeawayworld.net/.image/ar_16:9%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_1200/MjAwNzIxNzUzMjMwNTUwMjIw/376375365_195247706906896_6442094620287754401_n.png[/IMG]

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15031456]Career elimination game numbers

[IMG]https://fadeawayworld.net/.image/ar_16:9%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_1200/MjAwNzIxNzUzMjMwNTUwMjIw/376375365_195247706906896_6442094620287754401_n.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]

[IMG]https://media4.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExZHQyanAyOTczNmxxNm53cDJ5YWF4Y2NlNm42NzFpd20xcWF1bmpueiZlcD12MV9naWZzX3NlYXJjaCZjdD1n/MG7Ox4h7r2riU/200.webp[/IMG]