Micheal Jordan Denial

[QUOTE=KINGD]This post explains Kobe's great TEAM defense as well.

And if we're going to look at how the defense falls apart when a player doesn't play, we might as well switch some of the attention to Kobe as LAs defense falls apart more when he's off court (-11.2 points per 100 possessions) than Boston's D does when KG sits (-9.2). Actually if you're going to use the points per 100 possessions to show defensive impact, Kobe's is bigger than any player in the running for the MVP, including KG.

Lakers defensive efficiency is worse than the worst team in the league (that would be the Knicks) by a good margin when Kobe is off the floor, and is better than the team ranked 4th (Hornets) with him on the floor. Don't know how much more you can ask for if you go by defensive efficiency as a way to measure defensive impact

LA's defense decreases by 12.2 points per 100 possessions when Kobe is on the bench, while the offense increases by 5.3 points per 100 possessions,

As a little follow up to the defensive impact argument, I've looked into on/off court impact in eFG% too. The leaders among players that play at least 50% are:

1. Kobe Bryant -5.1%
2. Marcus Camby -4.4%
3. Pau Gasol -4.3%
4. Kevin Garnett -4.1%

I think it's interesting how just about every shotblocker in the league has a good impact here, and few guards have good impact. It's very noteworthy that a guard is on top of the chart.

The leaders in on/off impact in defensive efficiency (points per 100 possessions) were:

1. Kobe Bryant -12.2
2. Josh Smith -9.1
x. Marcus Camby -8.3
x. Kevin Garnett -7.8 (can't remember all the players in between, but I know Kobe and Josh were 1 and 2).

So, I feel very confident when I say that Kobe is my DPOY at this point in the season followed by KG and Marcus Camby. Biggest impact in both eFG% and defensive efficiency is pretty big, especially for a guard. No stat is perfect unless you have the right context, and these are no different, but they show a strong indication none the less.

[url]http://www.ocregister.com/sports/lakers-kobe-bryant-1996873-left-game[/url]

I think Kobe should be DPOY .[/QUOTE]

I don't know where you got those stats from but I think they are wrong. Kobe's net defensive impact per 100 possessions is -3.3 pts according to 82games.com (compared to garnetts -5.5) Its still a very good score but no where near the number you posted.

As a side note, dwight howard, much touted for his defensive prowess is +2.4

[url]http://www.82games.com/ONSORT5.HTM[/url]

[QUOTE=dejordan]you think kobe peaked at 22 - 24, and we didn't get to see it because of shaq? i don't know about that. that's awfully young for a guard to peak. for that matter kobe took 5 & 1/2 more shots per game than shaq in 2003 too (exactly 1 shot per game less than mike at the same age, when jordan averaged 35, won his first mvp, and the dpoy). he showed us what he had that year, and played amazing ball.

i think we may have missed out on his peak because he was hurt at ages 25 and 26. at 27 he got healthy, and now you can wonder: would he have been a better player from 25 yrs old to the present if he'd never been hurt? i think so. but i think that between 25 and 29 most players tend to hit their best combination of physical dominance and mental game - ( and by the way, when i say mental game i don't necessarily mean playing mind games. i mean understanding how to fit into a team and lead your teammates is what makes you win. even when you've got guys like jud buchler and bill wennington playing in your playoff rotations, you've got them motivated, confident, and able to play their roles, and that makes you a better player than someone who just shows up, guns up big numbers, and goes home mad at his teammates).

but i definitely think saying that we didn't see someone at their best is a slippery slope, and we should be careful (i'm agreeing with you, so i'll use the word "we"). you could claim the same thing about penny or hill if you wanted to and call them twice as good as they were (and people seem to do that subconsciously). or you could say that jordan had his best finals in 93, and would have had his best year ever if he'd played in 94. can't really prove or refute any of it.[/QUOTE]

No, it's not about age but mileage imo. Kobe peaked at 01-05 because that's when he best combined his amazing atlhletic gifts with his skill. I think a player prime occurs between his 5th to 8th year. Now he has the skill but has clearly lost a step. It really really sucks that 03-04 and 04-05 were ruined for Kobe because of off the court problems. I agree on the '' mental part" of the game but I was referring to game management, mastery of the game, being crafty etc.:pimp:

[QUOTE=easydoesit]I don't know where you got those stats from but I think they are wrong. Kobe's net defensive impact per 100 possessions is -3.3 pts according to 82games.com (compared to garnetts -5.5) Its still a very good score but no where near the number you posted.

As a side note, dwight howard, much touted for his defensive prowess is +2.4

[url]http://www.82games.com/ONSORT5.HTM[/url][/QUOTE]

Hmmm you are correct. Still, for a guard, that is extremely impressive.:pimp:

[QUOTE=KINGD]No, it's not about age but mileage imo. Kobe peaked at 01-05 because that's when he best combined his amazing atlhletic gifts with his skill. I think a player prime occurs between his 5th to 8th year. Now he has the skill but has clearly lost a step. It really really sucks that 03-04 and 04-05 were ruined for Kobe because of off the court problems. I agree on the '' mental part" of the game but I was referring to game management, mastery of the game, being crafty etc.:pimp:[/QUOTE]
gotcha. i agree. and here i thought you were just trolling to stir up **** earlier, yet you've got a thoughtful evalution going. it pays to take the time to type it out.

other than kobe, who are your faves today?

[QUOTE=dejordan]gotcha. i agree. and here i thought you were just trolling to stir up **** earlier, yet you've got a thoughtful evalution going. it pays to take the time to type it out.

other than kobe, who are your faves today?[/QUOTE]


Hmm, well my all time favorite player was Bird, but in todays league my favs are Duncan/Gasol/Kobe. I enjoy the skilled players.:cheers:

Black Mamba is not in Duncan

[QUOTE=Anaximandro1]Black Mamba is not in Duncan

KINGD i like the posts, may not agree, but that's not what i'm getting at... you did a good job of presenting your side of the topic and keeping it above board while not coming off trollish or groupie like at all... great job keep up the good thoughful posts....

[QUOTE=gts]KINGD i like the posts, may not agree, but that's not what i'm getting at... you did a good job of presenting your side of the topic and keeping it above board while not coming off trollish or groupie like at all... great job keep up the good thoughful posts....[/QUOTE]

I would agree with gts. Nice job KingD of doing some research and making the effort to present it all without getting trollish.

I'm glad someone did that research, 'cause I sure as hell ain't gonna do it.

[QUOTE=gts]KINGD i like the posts, may not agree, but that's not what i'm getting at... you did a good job of presenting your side of the topic and keeping it above board while not coming off trollish or groupie like at all... great job keep up the good thoughful posts....[/QUOTE]


:)

[QUOTE=bleedinpurpleTwo]I would agree with gts. Nice job KingD of doing some research and making the effort to present it all without getting trollish.

I'm glad someone did that research, 'cause I sure as hell ain't gonna do it.[/QUOTE]

I'm never trollish.:)

Anybody here live in Denver? Listen to the Irv Joe and Jim Show? They were discussing the top 10 SG list. Both Irv and Joe thought Kobe was better then MJ. How ironic.

Well to me the people @ his level or going ot be better is

magic
Lebron
Kobe

[I]i know theres more hall of famers at his leven but to lazy to type..[/I]

[QUOTE=KINGD]Anybody here live in Denver? Listen to the Irv Joe and Jim Show? They were discussing the top 10 SG list. Both Irv and Joe thought Kobe was better then MJ. How ironic.[/QUOTE]always remember that radio and TV talk show guys need to stir the pot now and again to keep the listeners listening and calling... the shows not interesting if everything they say is agreeable... and the kobe vs. MJ debate will always stir the pot... lol

From LG





Kobe Bryant (plays most of his minutes at SG):

Opponent SG PER and eFG% - 13.4 and 44.5%
Opponent SF PER - 15.5 and 53.7%

Kevin Garnett (plays most of his minutes at PF):

Opponent PF PER and eFG% - 12.4 and 40%
Opponent C PER and eFG% - 17 and 48.3%

Marcus Camby (C):

Opponent C PER and eFG% - 18.8 and 51.8%

Chris Paul (PG):
Opponent PG PER and eFG% - 18.1 and 51%

Josh Smith (PF):

Opponent PF PER and eFG% - 18.8 and 49.9

Those numbers don't tell everything but I think DPOY is between Kobe and KG.