Wilt Chamberlain discussion

[QUOTE=Psileas]I assume nothing. Open some books, ask people who know about the 60's and educate yourself.[/quote]

Ha, you deny then that you tacked on 2 inches to every 60's player's height? That's an 'assumption' because you don't know what the differences actually are. All the education in the world, of which I have plenty, is not going to change the fact that you didn't know the numbers when you claimed you did.

[quote]The 50th best big in any modern league is a low-impact scrub or, at best, a very mediocre player, with low basketball skills, especially nowadays. This doesn't constitute a "good big" or real competition.[/quote]

I completely agree with you. That's why you should see my point about how the 60s were watered down when you have to go to the 50'th or 60'th player in 1991 to reach the player getting half of the leader, Robinson's boards. 30 years earlier you hit that mark at rebounder #7. Thanks for finally agreeing.

[quote]The real reason you only care about straightly comparing players from different eras without any adjustment is because deep inside you know that older guys had much more talent than you give them credit and you fear that a more fair, adjusted comparison (which is the norm in comparing just about anything, except if you have ever met anyone who believes that the commander-in-chief of the army of modern Tanzania is greater than Alexander the Great, because Alexander's army used swords and shields) would greatly hurt the players you idolized.[/quote]

Greater? No. Who would win a fight? Tanzania would kill every one of them without sustaining a scratch 100 times out of 100.

The real reason I don't have adjusted stats? Well adjusted for what? My point is that possessions/watered down talent relative to the best players hyper inflated their stats. I don't really have time to pace adjust stats for 30 years of basketball. How can you say that? Everything I've posted has been making a case TO adjust their stats and discussing the factors which would have to be adjusted for to compare their play then statistically to play now.

[quote]No, really, you find me one sane person who would think like this in that army example. And this example is actually exaggerated, because war in the last 2,300 years progressed way, way more than basketball in the last 30-50. The equivalent of the Atom Bomb in 330 BC in basketball would be a player averaging like 3,000 ppg (or generally, a completely supernatural number) in the 60's/70's.

OK, off now.[/QUOTE]

You know I have never put down the 'greatness' of these players. At every juncture I've stated I think they are great and deserve their place in the sports history. I'm a fan of many of them. I love Kareem and watched him when I was a kid. I think West was a great shooter. I think Bill Russell was a great winner.

I have said one and only one solitary thing. These players could not achieve that same greatness as the players they were with the same skills and abilities in the modern NBA. Its the same way (but to a lesser degree) that Alexander the great would lose any battle to the army of Tanzina using the same methods they used to fight wars. I have not been unreasonable or even disrespectful to them. I'm pretty sure Jerry West will be the first to admit he didn't have the skills of Michael Jordan and that the closeness of their stats are not indicative of their relative skill sets. What does he have to prove? He's Jerry West. The only finals MVP to lose. The guy who's image is on every piece of NBA anything in the world. And he started it all shooting a soccer ball through a crap hoop after his father had drank to much. Then he went on to build championship teams as a GM.

That dude has nothing left to prove and I'm pretty sure he would admit the league has evolved to another level for many of the reasons I listed... the biggest of which I stated was that these players I supposedly disrespect pushed the league to a higher level and that the improvement was not a knock against them but their legacy. I'm not sure why his fans can not accept the facts/truth of the matter. You even went beyond this... you said the 50's players were in the same league. Its just preposterous. Watch Geroge Mikan and tell me he plays with Shaq. He does not. He loses to Shaq just like Alexander gets shot a bullet or his army is melted down with a tactical nuclear device.

[QUOTE=Psileas]


The 50th best big in any modern league is a low-impact scrub or, at best, a very mediocre player, with low basketball skills, especially nowadays. This doesn't constitute a "good big" or real competition.

The real reason you only care about straightly comparing players from different eras without any adjustment is because deep inside you know that older guys had much more talent than you give them credit and you fear that a more fair, adjusted comparison (which is the norm in comparing just about anything, except if you have ever met anyone who believes that the commander-in-chief of the army of modern Tanzania is greater than Alexander the Great, because Alexander's army used swords and shields) would greatly hurt the players you idolized.
No, really, you find me one sane person who would think like this in that army example. And this example is actually exaggerated, because war in the last 2,300 years progressed way, way more than basketball in the last 30-50. The equivalent of the Atom Bomb in 330 BC in basketball would be a player averaging like 3,000 ppg (or generally, a completely supernatural number) in the 60's/70's.

OK, off now.[/QUOTE]
It is not even that much of an adjustment. The ignorant here would have us believe we have created a race of superhumans within one generation that athletes of the 60's could not compete with:rolleyes: ( Bob Beamon laughs)

Yet the idolization of today's GROSSLY overhyped shoesalesmen makes it just that much more amusing when they lose to 'unathletic' /soft Euro players in the 2002 World Campionships(6th place), 2004 Olympics & 2006 FIBA Championships losing to some teams with not a single NBA player on it's roster.

Elvin Hayes/Wes Unseld/Kareem & even Dr J prove that there is an indisputable continuity/fluidity of Basketball between the three decades(60's,70's,80's).

Sports is always evolving,but it isn't like the game of today is unrecognizable compared to the 70's /80's.

[QUOTE=32jazz]It is not even that much of an adjustment. The ignorant here would have us believe we have created a race of superhumans within one generation that athletes of the 60's could not compete with:rolleyes: ( Bob Beamon laughs)[/QUOTE]


That obviously is not true as framed, but the interaction between athletic ability, drawing from a larger pool of talent, and most importantly the scientific gains in body chemistry, nutrition, etc (which HAS grown by leaps and bounds, especially in application) leads the average player to be noticeably more athletic than 40 years ago.

If you want to discuss something like track and field, virtually every single record from the 60s has been smashed, and the vast majority have been broken multiple times.

[QUOTE=Bush4Ever]That obviously is not true as framed, but the interaction between athletic ability, drawing from a larger pool of talent, and most importantly the scientific gains in body chemistry, nutrition, etc (which HAS grown by leaps and bounds, especially in application) leads the average player to be noticeably more athletic than 40 years ago.

If you want to discuss something like track and field, virtually every single record from the 60s has been smashed, and the vast majority have been broken multiple times.[/QUOTE]

Let's look at(not all) just a FEW of your hero sprinters who have 'smashed' the world record recently: Tim Montgomery(doper),Justin Gatlin(Doper),Linford Christie(disgaraced doper),Maurice Greene(suspected doper with some shady payments to dope dealers),the East Germas,etc....as I said that was just a few as I don't have time to name them all:confusedshrug: .

Let's not forget Flo Jo who was transforming into a man before our very eyes & Maiden Marion Jones(who proved you can do it without detection):rolleyes: Please don't disgrace the names of great Track Athletes of the past with these dopers of the late 70's/80's & beyond. No one barely trusts the times/records anymore & the sports prestige has suffered accordingly.

The 100m record of '68(Jim Hines) stood for nearly two(2) decades & we know Bob Beamon's strory.

I admitted in my post that sports is always evolving ,but it is assinine to think that for some reason that Humans are somehow just so physically superior to those a generation or so ago.
I have acknowledged the evolution/improvement of equipment,training techniques,etc....:confusedshrug:

Then again we are talking about Basketball here & not the drug infested Track & Field world of today.

Fact is Elvin Hayes/Kareem/Wes Unseld/Dr J(technically),etc...had no problem playing in either one of the three decades(60's/70's/80's) & even excelled at very advanced ages well into 80's. It is a testamet to the continuity of the sport from the 60's to the 80's(NBA golden Era) up until today.

Now go let ESPN bombard you with how marvelous & super-human Dwight Howard & Lebron James are:rolleyes:

[QUOTE=32jazz]Let's look at(not all) just a FEW of your hero sprinters who have 'smashed' the world record recently: Tim Montgomery(doper),Justin Gatlin(Doper),Linford Christie(disgaraced doper),Maurice Greene(suspected doper with some shady payments to dope dealers),the East Germas,etc....as I said that was just a few as I don't have time to name them all:confusedshrug: .

Let's not forget Flo Jo who was transforming into a man before our very eyes & Maiden Marion Jones(who proved you can do it without detection):rolleyes: Please don't disgrace the names of great Track Athletes of the past with these dopers of the late 70's/80's & beyond. No one barely trusts the times/records anymore & the sports prestige has suffered accordingly.

The 100m record of '68(Jim Hines) stood for nearly two(2) decades & we know Bob Beamon's strory.

I admitted in my post that sports is always evolving ,but it is assinine to think that for some reason that Humans are somehow just so physically superior to those a generation or so ago.
I have acknowledged the evolution/improvement of equipment,training techniques,etc....:confusedshrug:

Then again we are talking about Basketball here & not the drug infested Track & Field world of today.

Fact is Elvin Hayes/Kareem/Wes Unseld/Dr J(technically),etc...had no problem playing in either one of the three decades(60's/70's/80's) & even excelled at very advanced ages well into 80's. It is a testamet to the continuity of the sport from the 60's to the 80's(NBA golden Era) up until today.

Now go let ESPN bombard you with how marvelous & super-human Dwight Howard & Lebron James are:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

If you don't like using professional times, you can use high school times or college times. The same pattern holds. Swimming times are another easy example.

I don't think anyone would argue that human beings have evolved to become superhuman beings, but rather than all of the tangential advantages afforded to today's athletes give the modern athlete a non-trivial edge in terms of athleticism compared to 40 years ago. Of course, exceptions will always exist. Some overlap does exist between eras, but the mean levels of athleticism are better today. Think of something like this, with the modern era on the right:
[url]http://www.dtreg.com/LdaOverlapDistribution.jpg[/url]

Now go let senile old men bombard you with how Wilt had a 80 inch vertical, could bench press the state of Utah, and had sex with 20,000 women while bench pressing the state of Utah (that is a joke, don't freak out).

Actually if you study T n F records the biggest jumps occured when there was no/lax drug testing. When testing was implemented, records moved much slower.

[QUOTE=Bush4Ever]
Now go let senile old men bombard you with how Wilt had a 80 inch vertical, could bench press the state of Utah, and had sex with 20,000 women while bench pressing the state of Utah (that is a joke, don't freak out).[/QUOTE]

What? 'while' making love with 20 k women? Didn't he bench press the statue of Utah with his *****??

[QUOTE=32jazz]It is not even that much of an adjustment. The ignorant here would have us believe we have created a race of superhumans within one generation that athletes of the 60's could not compete with:rolleyes: ( Bob Beamon laughs)

Yet the idolization of today's GROSSLY overhyped shoesalesmen makes it just that much more amusing when they lose to 'unathletic' /soft Euro players in the 2002 World Campionships(6th place), 2004 Olympics & 2006 FIBA Championships losing to some teams with not a single NBA player on it's roster.

Elvin Hayes/Wes Unseld/Kareem & even Dr J prove that there is an indisputable continuity/fluidity of Basketball between the three decades(60's,70's,80's).

Sports is always evolving,but it isn't like the game of today is unrecognizable compared to the 70's /80's.[/QUOTE]

When was Garbo unathletic? He did everything for the Raptors. 3 players prove jack squat about anything except 3 player out of 100's.

[QUOTE=indiefan23]Discuss Wilt Chamberlain[/QUOTE]

The 60's were a weak era. Anyone can score on 6'4" white guys at center

[QUOTE=Bush4Ever]If you don't like using professional times, you can use high school times or college times. The same pattern holds. Swimming times are another easy example.

I don't think anyone would argue that human beings have evolved to become superhuman beings, but rather than all of the tangential advantages afforded to today's athletes give the modern athlete a non-trivial edge in terms of athleticism compared to 40 years ago. Of course, exceptions will always exist. Some overlap does exist between eras, but the mean levels of athleticism are better today. Think of something like this, with the modern era on the right:
[url]http://www.dtreg.com/LdaOverlapDistribution.jpg[/url]

Now go let senile old men bombard you with how Wilt had a 80 inch vertical, could bench press the state of Utah, and had sex with 20,000 women while bench pressing the state of Utah (that is a joke, don't freak out).[/QUOTE]


I have no problem with using the times of these( record breaking)PROVEN dopeheads/cheaters you are so impressed with :confusedshrug: I have never claimed that athletes of the past are somehow superior so I'm not under any delusion that Wilt is more athletic than D Rob or Dwight Howard.Unlike contemporary clowns (yourself included) I do not believe one to be any superior to the other.
I'm gonna say it again that it is obvious that training,equipment,techniques,etc....have improved, attempting to sqeeze a bit more out of our abilities, but it's foolish to believe humans are somehow physically superior.

That being said Athleticism isn't the only thing that determines Basketball greatness /success & I repeat:
Elvin Hayes/Kareem/Wes Unseld/Dr J had no problem playing in the 60's/70's & at advanced ages well into the 80's since we are talking about Basketball aren't we:confusedshrug: & not your doped up Track & Field Athletes of the past 2-3 decades or so.

[QUOTE=32jazz]I have no problem with using the times of these( record breaking)PROVEN dopeheads/cheaters you are so impressed with :confusedshrug: I have never claimed that athletes of the past are somehow superior so I'm not under any delusion that Wilt is more athletic than D Rob or Dwight Howard.Unlike contemporary clowns (yourself included) I do not believe one to be any superior to the other.
I'm gonna say it again that it is obvious that training,equipment,techniques,etc....have improved, attempting to sqeeze a bit more out of our abilities, but it's foolish to believe humans are somehow physically superior.

That being said Athleticism isn't the only thing that determines Basketball greatness /success & I repeat:
Elvin Hayes/Kareem/Wes Unseld/Dr J had no problem playing in the 60's/70's & at advanced ages well into the 80's since we are talking about Basketball aren't we:confusedshrug: & not your doped up Track & Field Athletes of the past 2-3 decades or so.[/QUOTE]

RAGE = THE COOL :mad: :mad:

I'll let other people evaluate my statements and posting history since you seem to be upset.

[QUOTE=Bush4Ever]RAGE = THE COOL :mad: :mad:

I'll let other people evaluate my statements and posting history since you seem to be upset.[/QUOTE]
^^^
:cry:

Good , because I really don't have patience for close minded Knucklheads nor the performance enhanced contemporary cheats they slurp at the expense of other wonderful more 'natural'athletes of another era.

[QUOTE=32jazz]I have no problem with using the times of these( record breaking)PROVEN dopeheads/cheaters you are so impressed with :confusedshrug: I have never claimed that athletes of the past are somehow superior so I'm not under any delusion that Wilt is more athletic than D Rob or Dwight Howard.Unlike contemporary clowns (yourself included) I do not believe one to be any superior to the other.
I'm gonna say it again that it is obvious that training,equipment,techniques,etc....have improved, attempting to sqeeze a bit more out of our abilities, but it's foolish to believe humans are somehow physically superior.

That being said Athleticism isn't the only thing that determines Basketball greatness /success & I repeat:
Elvin Hayes/Kareem/Wes Unseld/Dr J had no problem playing in the 60's/70's & at advanced ages well into the 80's since we are talking about Basketball aren't we:confusedshrug: & not your doped up Track & Field Athletes of the past 2-3 decades or so.[/QUOTE]

Man, what is your issue? Guy is a 'clown' now because he made a few reasonable points about how athletics has progressed? And why do the doping runners invalidate the ones who didn't dope?

Hayes/Unseld only played into the early, early 80's before it really got strong. Kareem/Unseld were shadows of their formers selves on teams led by players who were better then them.

Either way... if I can do things physically that you can't that means I'm physically superior. Its simple.

[QUOTE=32jazz]^^^
:cry:

Good , because I really don't have patience for close minded Knucklheads nor the performance enhanced contemporary cheats they slurp at the expense of other wonderful more 'natural'athletes of another era.[/QUOTE]

You mean closed minded there huh? Whats your point anyway? Doping is almost a non-issue in basketball because it limits players agility. Players often need to drop not gain. I'm not sure which of your fav players' toes we stepped on because your reaction while barely disagreeing with anything anyone is saying is just intense. I bet you're kinda like that Psilias guy who got so offended I didn't think his favorite players wern't as good as their stats he started saying the greatest players in the history of the game were all poor athletes. He didn't go as far as to say Jordan was a poor athlete but he got close.

[QUOTE=Psileas]stuff[/QUOTE]

Hey Psileas... your PM's on here are full. I'm trying to send ya something. Think you can clear it?