Wilt the "Choker"

[QUOTE=julizaver]About the mentioned shot-blocking stats of Wilt against Kareem it is from old newspapers finding data from Google news archive search. The most data is from Milwaukee Sentinel and Milwaukee Journal plus LA Times (but the last one is a paid one and I have no access to it, so I tried different tricks to gain data from it)

What I was able to find is that Wilt blocked 21 shots of Kareem from 5 playoff games (out of 11). There are certainly more because in Game 2 of 1971 WCF we have information that Wilt blocked "numerous shots, several against Kareem", but do not know the exact number. In 1972 WCF series Wilt blocked Kareem shots as follows:

in Game 3 - 6 blocks
in Game 5 - 4 blocks
in Game 6 - 3 blocks

At that time the word "sky hook" is not used in the newspapers, so we do not know how many of those shots are hook shots, BUT since those games were televised, someone who used to be present at a time or watch it by TV could claim that Wilt really block sky hooks. I am not one of them - but hope one day they will show it in Classic games.
What we have now as a prove is that Wilt blocked 2 hook shots in row by Kareem in that youtube clip.
And also Wilt blocked Kareem hook shot ( LA Times) in their first NBA encounter in 1969.[/QUOTE]


Please, share your sources with us. I'm absolutely not saying that you are lying and I appreciate your research but in all honesty, it's kind of worthless if you can't feed us with the sources you got your numbers from. I'm sure you saved it on your computer after spending that kind of time to find that info. Thanks in advance!

And still no proof of Wilt blocking up to 20 skyhooks in the '72 series, I knew it all along but since Jlauber spammed about it so much I finally got fed up with it so I demanded proof. In his world "proof" is equal to own conclusions and theories..:facepalm

[QUOTE=PTB Fan]I don't think Wilt blocked Kareem's sky hooks... 15 is like too many. [B]1-3 is a possibility.[/B][/QUOTE]
Are you talking about a 5 second time span?

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Are you talking about a 5 second time span?[/QUOTE]

No... i'm talking about the entire series. I doubt Wilt blocked 20 of Kareem's sky hooks. Pretty sure he blocked many less than that... let's say something to like 3-5 swat sky hooks for the entire series.

[QUOTE=PTB Fan]No... i'm talking about the entire series. I doubt Wilt blocked 20 of Kareem's sky hooks. Pretty sure he blocked many less than that... let's say something to like 3-5 swat sky hooks for the entire series.[/QUOTE]
I only said that because the clip showed Wilt blocking them back to back in a 5 second span. There are two other clips of the sky hook being blocked but to be honest I don't know if they are playoff games or not. I know I never seen Kareem show moves like he did before shooting the hook and you won't see him move that quick like he does in that video above that Frescobaldi posted. The moves didn't phase Wilt at all. The amazing thing about Wilt was his timing, the more deliberate a shot is, he will likely get to it.

[QUOTE=millwad]Please, share your sources with us. I'm absolutely not saying that you are lying and I appreciate your research but in all honesty, it's kind of worthless if you can't feed us with the sources you got your numbers from. I'm sure you saved it on your computer after spending that kind of time to find that info. Thanks in advance!

And still no proof of Wilt blocking up to 20 skyhooks in the '72 series, I knew it all along but since Jlauber spammed about it so much I finally got fed up with it so I demanded proof. In his world "proof" is equal to own conclusions and theories..:facepalm[/QUOTE]

OK, I said it before - the sources are in the Internet, I didn't own them, I just take the numbers and wrote them. Go through the googlenews archive search you can find a lot of data for free. Sadly papers like LA Times and New York Times are paid, they can provide you only with short resumes. Below I post a link of a game between Wilt and Jabbar:

[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=bbRdAAAAIBAJ&sjid=5l0NAAAAIBAJ&pg=1047,967283&dq=wilt+blocked+shots&hl=en[/url]

[QUOTE=Pointguard]I only said that because the clip showed Wilt blocking them back to back in a 5 second span. There are two other clips of the sky hook being blocked but to be honest I don't know if they are playoff games or not. I know I never seen Kareem show moves like he did before shooting the hook and you won't see him move that quick like he does in that video above that Frescobaldi posted. The moves didn't phase Wilt at all. The amazing thing about Wilt was his timing, the more deliberate a shot is, he will likely get to it.[/QUOTE]

Sure thing. If we have some of the actual footage, we can see if Wilt had actually blocked more sky hooks than he's thought of. It was a very difficult shot to contest, but Wilt seemed to challenge it best

[QUOTE=julizaver]OK, I said it before - the sources are in the Internet, I didn't own them, I just take the numbers and wrote them. Go through the googlenews archive search you can find a lot of data for free. Sadly papers like LA Times and New York Times are paid, they can provide you only with short resumes. Below I post a link of a game between Wilt and Jabbar:

[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=bbRdAAAAIBAJ&sjid=5l0NAAAAIBAJ&pg=1047,967283&dq=wilt+blocked+shots&hl=en[/url][/QUOTE]

Yeah, buddy, I know you don't own them.
But you know, usually when someone does a research, the person also saves his sources which is why I asked you for your sources.

And the link you posted says nothing about skyhooks, it only says he blocked 5 of Jabbar's shots.

Well, anyway, it's not your fault that Jlauber lied and thanks for replying in this thread regarding your research. He used you as a source but the stupid old fart used a source who had no idea about the nonsense Jlauber just made up.

[QUOTE=millwad]Yeah, buddy, I know you don't own them.
But you know, usually when someone does a research, the person also saves his sources which is why I asked you for your sources.

And the link you posted says nothing about skyhooks, it only says he blocked 5 of Jabbar's shots.

Well, anyway, it's not your fault that Jlauber lied and thanks for replying in this thread regarding your research. He used you as a source but the stupid old fart used a source who had no idea about the nonsense Jlauber just made up.[/QUOTE]

You are truly pathetic. How many games did YOU see between the two? How many games are out there on video between the two? Julizaver is just ONE source I provided (and he is THE expert on these H2H's BTW.) Robert Cherry has Wilt with with those ten blocks in game two, and SIX on Kareem (page 264.) And in that clinching game six, he has Chamberlain with nine blocks, and FIVE against Kareem. So between Julizaver and Cherry, in those THREE games, Wilt had between 13-15 blocks JUST on Kareem. And we KNOW that Kareem took close to another 100 shots in the other three games of that series, and certainly Wilt blocked more.

Now, YOU prove that they weren't sky-hooks. How often have you read a recap in which it would something like, "Kareem went 15-22 from the field, and out of those seven misses, he missed on four skyhooks."?

Kareem's go-to shot was his SKYHOOK. Just WATCH footage of almost ANT game that Kareem has played. He took FAR more SKYHOOKS than anything else. And he was certainly no JUMP-SHOOTER. And yes, Wilt ROUTINELY blocked it. Julizaver gave you FIVE games of 21 blocks (and if you use Cherry's number in that game six, it would have been 23.) THEN, he also mentions another game in which Wilt had NUMEROUS blocks, including SEVERAL on Kareem.

There is NO DOUBT, (and you have certainly provided NOTHING to dispute it) that Wilt knocked 15+ SKYHOOK out of the gym in the six game series. And I even provided you with yet ANOTHER source that credited Wilt with 23 blocks of SKYHOOKS in that series.

Case closed. Unless of course, YOU can provide us with YOUR RESEARCH. But, you NEVER provide ANY in any of your posts. In fact, you LIE in your's. Just like ripping my post claiming that a 37-38 year old Kareem dumped THREE games of 40+ on Hakeem. You vehemently claimed that you WATCHED those games, and yet, MY RESEARCH PROVED you were a liar. So we are supposed to believe that you have some kind of insight in the Wilt-Kareem H2H's, when you LIED about WATCHING the Kareem-Hakeem H2H's, and in which a WAY PAST his PRIME Kareem just ANNIHILATED a helpless Hakeem. As I have in MANY of these "discussions" with you.

So, until YOU give me LEGITIMATE sources claiming that those 15 KNOWN blocks against Kareem, in just THREE of those six contents in the '72 WCF's were NOT skyhooks, I will go with what I KNOW. And, yes, I WATCHED every game of that series. He EASILY blocked 15 in that entire series. And Kareem was absolutely shell-shocked from it. He was an AWFUL .414 from the floor after game two. Not only that, but Wilt continued to block that "unblockable" sky-hook the next season, as well, and at age 36....when he held a PRIME Kareem to .450 shooting over the course of their six regular season H2H's. And over the course of their 28 H2H meetings, an old Wilt held a PRIME Kareem to nearly 100 points under his CAREER FG% of .559 (.464.)

Think about that...a 35-36 Wilt held a PRIME Kareem to .434 shooting in their LAST TEN H2H games. Of course, a 38 year old Kareem shot .634 against your Hakeem in FIVE H2H games in the 85-86 season, AND, over the course of ALL of their H2H's thru the 88-89 season, and from age 38 thru 41, Kareem shot a STAGGERING .599 against Hakeem-led teams (and really Sampson was the only reason that FG% was THAT low.)

Once again, once you give us here some REAL evidence to the contrary, the 15+ blocks of skyhooks will stand. And realistically, over the course of their 28 H2H games, it was probably between 50+. And we also have VIDEO footage, in a matter of SECONDS, in which he blocked TWO SKYHOOKS. For anyone to claim that Wilt only blocked between 3-5 is ABSURD. In the few minutes of actual VIDEO footage we have between the two, Wilt blocked TWO within SECONDS. I'm supposed to believe then, that with the KNOWN 25+ blocks covering SIX of their H2H's, that Wilt only blocked 3-5? Especially after we have PROOF of him swatting TWO-IN-A-ROW???

And BTW, YOU have no reason to challenge Julizaver's research, either...since YOU haven't provided ANY of your own.

As more an more footage is being released of Chamberlain, we are finally able to put an end to those that have challenged Wilt's remarkable achievements.

For the past several years on this forum, there were those that claimed that Wilt had a 32", or less vertical, Now, in the past few days, we have a Chamberlain, at age 34, at around 300 lbs, and only a year from major knee surgery, with his hand above the square, in a jump in which he goes straight up, and in a game in which he has been running-up-and-down the floor at a frenetic pace. THEN, we also got a video in Wilt's college days (when he was a HIGH JUMP champion) with his hand at nearly the top of the backboard, and again, in a jump in which he has no time to prepare, and goes straight up.

Only a complete fool (and there are several on this forum) would now claim that a young Wilt (or even a mid-60's Wilt) would not be capable of easily touching the top of the backboard with a running start. Of course, we also have an EYE-WITNESS account of that feat, as well.

We also had a couple of posters that claimed that Wilt did not have a decent outside shot (based on video of Chamberlain's poor FT shooting LATE in his career), and now we have SEVERAL videos in which he is hitting JUMP SHOTS from 15+ (yes even 16 FT.) And MANY of him hitting BANK SHOTS from 10-15 ft. (even LATE in his career.) Of course, we had a HOF coach, Red Holzman, who was saying that Wilt had a GOOD outside game.

If anything, Wilt's amazing achievements are now becoming understated. The man was scoring 45 points on a Thurmond, the SAME player that Kareem could only score a HIGH of 34 points against, and in 50+ H2H games! Of course, Wilt was scoring SEVERAL 50 point games against HOFer Willis Reed, and SEVERAL 60+ point games against 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy (who again, would easily be a seven-footer in TODAY's NBA.) Where were those games by Kareem against those players, both of whom he faced when they were well past their primes?

A PRIME Chamberlain, at 7-2 (and over 7-3 in TODAY's NBA), with his documented 7-8 wingspan, and at over 280 lbs, with his 40" vertical (and actually measured at 42" by sportswriter George Kiseda), with his well documented 500+ lb. bench press (and a DOCUMENTED 425 in 1964) and with his OBVIOUS 15+ foot range, would just OBLITERATE the greats of the last 20 years....just as he did to those that he actually CRUSHED in HIS era.

[QUOTE=PTB Fan]Sure thing. If we have [B]some of the actual footage[/B], we can see if Wilt had actually blocked more sky hooks than he's thought of. It was a very difficult shot to contest, but Wilt seemed to challenge it best[/QUOTE]

A few points here. First of all, we only have very limited footage of those H2H's, as is the case for much of Wilt's career. BUT, even in the few MINUTES of total footage that we DO have, we see Wilt swatting TWO of them within a few SECONDS of each other.

BTW, ALL SIX of the '72 WCF's were NATIONALLY televised, and I personally SAW every one of them. Wilt was easily knocking the skyhook all over the floor. And he challenged most all of them. Kareem shot a HORRIBLE percentage against Wilt on his skyhooks. Take away the dunks and easy baskets that he had, and his skyhook was probably reduced to under 40% against Chamberlain in that series.

But here again, Wilt never gets his due, because of the LIMITED footage that we have on him. There are probably only a few hours TOTAL, available, in a career in which spanned over 1200 games. BUT, we have so MANY eye-witness, and printed accounts of his amazing feats.

Yet, there have been idiots (not you BTW) here who have vehemently challenged almost EVERY claim ever accorded Wilt. Up until the recently released footage of Wilt in the '71 playoffs (and at 34, 300 lbs, and on a surgically repaired knee), and then the spectacular footage of a young Wilt with his hand very nearly at the top of the backboard, I repeatedly read here that because of the LIMITED footage, in which Wilt seldom even had to jump more than a few inches to block a shot, that that was all he was capable of. DESPITE what so MANY actually claimed, OVER-AND-OVER, that actually WITNESSED Wilt's staggering physical feats.

Fortunately, we are getting more and more fresh footage on Wilt, and as even more becomes available, we will finally be able to shut up the "non-believers" here. The man had amazing RANGE, SKILLS, and PHYSICAL ABILITY...we can CLEARLY see that.

Now here's a note on that little article he posted... not so much about the game but what Wilt says: "I don't care what you say about Kareem-- one-on-one he's unbeatable."

Here's a list in my opinion of the unstoppable one-on-one NBA players from the late 60s-early 70s... talking about their offensive skills not in any order:

Jerry West
Oscar Robertson
Rick Barry
Nate Archibald
Kareem
Wilt
Elvin Hayes
Bob McAdoo
Earl Monroe

I'm sure I've missed some greats & an argument could be made for some other guys - Jerry Lucas & Dave DeBusschere for example - but maybe that's the short list of the elite 1on1 SCORERS of that day. And a quick check at basketball ref looks not too bad although Pearl wouldn't be real high and probly I'm biased.

Anyhow, notice Chamberlain's scoring numbers in that last half of his career. They're miniscule. But believe me he could still score.


I saw an interesting note somewhere on the internet, along the lines of "I've often wondered what Chamberlain thought, knowing he was the greatest scoring force in the history of the game, passing off to guys who were ecstatic to get a 15 point game."

When you examine his playoffs - or remember that last half of his career like I do - you gotta recognize the guy was doing what his team needed. That stat-padding stuff everybody talks about is a load of manure.

Sharman was the guy, and I've often speculated that if Bill had coached the Lakers from '68 or '69 on, they would have won some more rings.

I don't think they would have beat the Knicks in the 70 Finals. That team is terrifically underrated:

Dick Barnett, Nate Bowman, Bill Bradley, Dave DeBusschere, Walt Frazier, Bill Hosket, Don May, Willis Reed, Mike Riordan, Cazzie Russell, Dave Stallworth, John Warren, coach Red Holzman[d]
4 HoF (Frazier, Bradley, DeBusschere, Reed)
3 Top 50 (Frazier, DeBusschere, Reed)
& HoF coach Red Holzman

With Chamberlain missing that season, I didn't think that was happening.

But 69 & 71 were more possible championship runs for those Laker squads if Sharman had been coaching.
I have always thought the Lakers would have beaten the Celtics in 69 if their coach had not been an absolute dolt.

And I always thought they would have beaten Kareem's Bucks in 71 even without Sharman, if Baylor & West had not drawn playoff DNPs.

Wilt was still able to throw down tremendous games that year, like

11-26-71 W.Cham. LA vs Det. 31 pts-31 rebs
12-19-71 W.cham. LA vs Phila. 34 pts-32 rebs

[QUOTE=jlauber]You are truly pathetic. How many games did YOU see between the two? How many games are out there on video between the two? Julizaver is just ONE source I provided (and he is THE expert on these H2H's BTW.) Robert Cherry has Wilt with with those ten blocks in game two, and SIX on Kareem (page 264.) And in that clinching game six, he has Chamberlain with nine blocks, and FIVE against Kareem. So between Julizaver and Cherry, in those THREE games, Wilt had between 13-15 blocks JUST on Kareem. And we KNOW that Kareem took close to another 100 shots in the other three games of that series, and certainly Wilt blocked more.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=jlauber]

Jlauber, you haven't seen any games. You changed your opinion regarding Wilt's era over some youtube-videos, you clown. And still you didn't prove that he blocked 15 to 20 skyhooks. In fact, nothing about the "facts" you've posted even says anything about skyhooks and even your own source couldn't confirm your nonsense..:facepalm

[QUOTE=jlauber]
Now, YOU prove that they weren't sky-hooks. How often have you read a recap in which it would something like, "Kareem went 15-22 from the field, and out of those seven misses, he missed on four skyhooks."?[/QUOTE]

Haha, you idiot. I don't have to prove anything. You made a claim you couldn't back up and now you look like a clown. Even your own source couldn't confirm a sh*t of your nonsense so go back to bed, old fart.

[QUOTE=jlauber]
Kareem's go-to shot was his SKYHOOK. Just WATCH footage of almost ANT game that Kareem has played. He took FAR more SKYHOOKS than anything else. And he was certainly no JUMP-SHOOTER. And yes, Wilt ROUTINELY blocked it. Julizaver gave you FIVE games of 21 blocks (and if you use Cherry's number in that game six, it would have been 23.) THEN, he also mentions another game in which Wilt had NUMEROUS blocks, including SEVERAL on Kareem. [/QUOTE]

Says nothing about skyhooks, cutie.

[QUOTE=jlauber]
There is NO DOUBT, (and you have certainly provided NOTHING to dispute it) that Wilt knocked 15+ SKYHOOK out of the gym in the six game series. And I even provided you with yet ANOTHER source that credited Wilt with 23 blocks of SKYHOOKS in that series.[/QUOTE]

Haha, you ph4ggot, it says nothing about skyhooks. Your assumption is equal to a pile of crap..:facepalm

Give me your source that credited Wilt with 23 skyhook blocks...

[QUOTE=jlauber]
Case closed. Unless of course, YOU can provide us with YOUR RESEARCH. But, you NEVER provide ANY in any of your posts. [/QUOTE]

I don't have to provide you with any research. I don't have to because I didn't make that pathetic claim... You did and you couldn't back it up, your assumption is not equal to the truth and I couldn't care less about your assumption, you're a sad and lonely 56 year old man..:facepalm




[QUOTE=jlauber]
And BTW, YOU have no reason to challenge Julizaver's research, either...since YOU haven't provided ANY of your own.[/QUOTE]

Haha, you're sad. I asked for his sources but he didn't give us any sources at all. If someone makes a claim and tells you he got the facts from google, then why isn't he posting it? Who does a research without any sources to back it up with?

Still not calling him a liar, I just want to see where he got his facts from. And Jlauber, you still didn't prove that Wilt blocked 15-20 skyhooks, haha, you're so sad..

I dunno if this is true but I read that back before games were heavily televised newspapers would lie about game statistics or perhaps the statisticians themselves would post the incorrect stats in order to hype up and market the game of basketball.

Example : they would change rebound numbers, assists, blocks etc.

Lauber once mentioned I think how they once changed the stats to give Russell the edge in rebounds over Wilt or something.

If this is true then can we really trust or rely on any of those old newspaper clippings or the stats they provide?

[QUOTE=32Dayz]I dunno if this is true but I read that back before games were heavily televised newspapers would lie about game statistics or perhaps the statisticians themselves would post the incorrect stats in order to hype up and market the game of basketball.

Example : they would change rebound numbers, assists, blocks etc.

Lauber once mentioned I think how they once changed the stats to give Russell the edge in rebounds over Wilt or something.

If this is true then can we really trust or rely on any of those old newspaper clippings or the stats they provide?[/QUOTE]

Wow, hope not man.

[QUOTE=32Dayz]I dunno if this is true but I read that back before games were heavily televised newspapers would lie about game statistics or perhaps the statisticians themselves would post the incorrect stats in order to hype up and market the game of basketball.

Example : they would change rebound numbers, assists, blocks etc.

Lauber once mentioned I think how they once changed the stats to give Russell the edge in rebounds over Wilt or something.

If this is true then can we really trust or rely on any of those old newspaper clippings or the stats they provide?[/QUOTE]

If that's true then that sucks..

But this is not relevant now really, Jlauber made a pathetic claim that Wilt blocked 15-20 of Kareem's skyhooks in '72 and I asked him for proof and the sucker can't prove a thing. His "evidence" is equal to his assumptions..