prime dirk vs current durant?

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]They didn't win a playoff game because the roster was completely different. [/quote]
Tyson Chandler was the only starter missing. That definitely not a completely different roster. Starters are considered the core.
[quote]
When you state one of the best PF's, I assume it's the Top 10. And Nowitzki had already enough on his resume to be considered one of the Top 50 players of all-time, which would put him in the Top 10 of PF's already. So really, Tyson Chandler had very little (if not nothing) to do with Nowtizki being one of the best PF's. Infact, he outproduced him. [/quote]
I spelled it out for you. I said the names of the PFs. Why are you talking about the top ten?

Dirk was not mentioned with the players I NAMED before 2011.



[quote]
And I can't see what case McHale has over Nowitzki outside of peak play. His individual achievements were already better before the ring. I don't really see how he can be above him all-time before that time. Infact, what puts him over Bob Pettit and Elvin Hayes outside of his rings ?[/QUOTE]

Best to handle this question with players seen before we go back with other guys. McHale was a premier post up player, great defender and winner. So he gets his respect - he gets a nod here because Barkley - the most versatile scorer at the position said he was one of the best. Pettite and Hayes are a separate conversation because of other factors involved in assessing them. To keep it simple KG, Malone and Barkley were a separate category. Dirk joined them after 2011.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Could you imagine if Malone and Barkley played out their entire careers in this era and never won? With Malone playing his entire career with Jason Kidd and Barkley playing on at least a few loaded teams?

These morons would be saying;

Malone/Barkley can't touch McHale...etc.

What gets me the most...is that people think it's a knock on Dirk that he needed Chandler to win. Chandler was nothing before 11. No team in the league even wanted him. And it wasn't his contract because it was expiring...the league concluded he was a bum. A cast off player nobody wanted...and somehow Dirk needing a guy that can't average a double double to win is a knock on him?

Now, don't get me wrong, I actually like Chandler and thought he was great for us, but certainly nowhere near as good as most 2nd best guys on title winning teams.[/QUOTE]
Yeah. Imagine Dirk actually needing a what, top 30 current player? That's just unfair stacking. Lol. The guy is not even as good as Nikola Pekovic.

The same idiot you're arguing with probably thinks Rose was "carrying" the Bulls even though Noah is unquestionably better than Chandler.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]Yeah. Imagine Dirk actually needing a what, top 30 current player? That's just unfair stacking. Lol. The guy is not even as good as Nikola Pekovic.

The same idiot you're arguing with probably thinks Rose was "carrying" the Bulls even though Noah is unquestionably better than Chandler.[/QUOTE]

He doesn't get it. Somehow guys like Deng and Noah aren't good, but Chandler and Terry (two clearly worse players)...made it unfair that Dirk won.

I thought I had heard it all until the the combo of Chandler/Terry is leading to;

Dirk needed too much help to win.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]He doesn't get it. Somehow guys like Deng and Noah aren't good, but Chandler and Terry (two clearly worse players)...made it unfair that Dirk won.

I thought I had heard it all until the the combo of Chandler/Terry is leading to;

Dirk needed too much help to win.[/QUOTE]

Hes just fishing for excuses to try and back up his arguement. The notion that role players like terry and chandler are even comparable to some of the recent championship teams players (discounting the FMVP) is insane, i mean think:

Wade/Bosh
Wade/Bosh
Gasol
Gasol
Garnett/Allen
Duncan/Ginobili

Now tell me that Jason Terry and Chandler are on these players levels

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]He doesn't get it. Somehow guys like Deng and Noah aren't good, but Chandler and Terry (two clearly worse players)...made it unfair that Dirk won.

[B]I thought I had heard it all until the the combo of Chandler/Terry is leading to[/B];

Dirk needed too much help to win.[/QUOTE]
Is Dirk having the combo of Chandler/Terry any better than what Kevin Love has with Pekovic/Rubio?

I'd STRONGLY argue that Pekovic/Rubio is better. Kevin Martin and Corey Brewer are about as good as over-the-hill Kidd and Peja. JJ Barea and Jos

[QUOTE=NumberSix]Is Dirk having the combo of Chandler/Terry any better than what Kevin Love has with Pekovic/Rubio?

[B]I'd STRONGLY argue that Pekovic/Rubio is better.[/B] Kevin Martin and Corey Brewer are about as good as over-the-hill Kidd and Peja. JJ Barea and Jos

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Actually he was by anyone that watched them all play. I think even Kblaze had Dirk over Malone years ago...and he's not a big Dirk fan at all.

Keep thinking that though.

Also, the same could be said for any of them. Take Stockton away from Malone. KG doesn't go to Boston. Barkley never gets those Suns teams...etc.

They were all made. The difference? Tyson Chandler is easily the worst 2nd best guy out of any guys the above players played with.

I mean...are you listening to yourself right now? You are knocking Dirk for needing Chandler to win. Malone never won with Stockton and Sloan...and really good teams. Barkley never won with a loaded Suns team. KG needed an absurdly stacked team to win...

But yea...Dirk needing Chandler is a knock...GTFO[/QUOTE]

It wasn't a knock. It was an allusion to the teams defensive makeup. If you don't understand context you can't provide a counter argument. It was an defensive team and that's why they won. You advance this argument when you bring up Chicago ALL the time. Durant/Kobe/Wade/Westbrook and Lebron all play far below their standards and level of play. Dirk had nothing to do with that. Kobe, Lebron and Wade usually out produce Dirk. And all have several playoffs where they had superior outputs to Dirk's output in this playoff run. Was Chauncey Billups considered better than Kobe and Shaq? Should he called a better player than Kobe because he looked way better in that series. Heck no. Without Ben Wallace we see that Billups would have been helpless.

Kidd was the second best player to me on that team and Tyson isn't a clear third either but he had it so that Kidd and Marion had the best defensive stands ever in a playoff run. Better than Hakeems, better than Mutombo's, and better than Ben Wallace's run. Dirk can't claim that.

Dmavs, the Bulls defense didn't come close to stopping Lebron like that but you claim they win on defense. You can't have it both ways. The Bulls stopped Wade in the fourth quarter, only when they put Rose on him.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]Is Dirk having the combo of Chandler/Terry any better than what Kevin Love has with Pekovic/Rubio?

I'd STRONGLY argue that Pekovic/Rubio is better. Kevin Martin and Corey Brewer are about as good as over-the-hill Kidd and Peja. JJ Barea and Jos

Chicago had the #1 ranked defense (they're routinely in the top 3) and Rose was held in check against Miami. Terrible argument.

[QUOTE=Black and White]Hes just fishing for excuses to try and back up his arguement. The notion that role players like terry and chandler are even comparable to some of the recent championship teams players (discounting the FMVP) is insane, i mean think:

Wade/Bosh
Wade/Bosh
Gasol
Gasol
Garnett/Allen
Duncan/Ginobili

Now tell me that Jason Terry and Chandler are on these players levels[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=NumberSix]Yeah. Imagine Dirk actually needing a what, top 30 current player? That's just unfair stacking. Lol. The guy is not even as good as Nikola Pekovic.

The same idiot you're arguing with probably thinks Rose was "carrying" the Bulls even though Noah is unquestionably better than Chandler.[/QUOTE]
:lol You are hopeless stupid clown, on a good day. Noah was hurt and was way off his game, D Rose's last healthy year and wasn't performing well the whole year. He got benched twice in ECF in the fourth quarter that year.

Chandler won DPOY the next year and was a best bigman defender that year in the playoffs for Dallas. The current Knicks would have a better record if he played and Mello missed the games instead. Chandler brings a ton of intangibles. But if you don't know, you don't know. Dirk had a ton of great things to say about his character and influence.

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Chicago had the #1 ranked defense (they're routinely in the top 3) and Rose was held in check against Miami. Terrible argument.[/QUOTE]
Huh???

[QUOTE=Pointguard]:lol You are hopeless stupid clown, on a good day. Noah was hurt and was way off his game, D Rose's last healthy year and wasn't performing well the whole year. He got benched twice in ECF in the fourth quarter that year.

Chandler won DPOY the next year and was a best bigman defender that year in the playoffs for Dallas. The current Knicks would have a better record if he played and Mello missed the games instead. Chandler brings a ton of intangibles. But if you don't know, you don't know. Dirk had a ton of great things to say about his character and influence.[/QUOTE]

I am not denying that he was essential to the title run for Dirk, but im saying that the notion that you think Dirk had too much help is insane, look at the list i put in front of you, did he have any players on his team of that quality??

[QUOTE=Pointguard]It wasn't a knock. It was an allusion to the teams defensive makeup. If you don't understand context you can't provide a counter argument. It was an defensive team and that's why they won. You advance this argument when you bring up Chicago ALL the time. Durant/Kobe/Wade/Westbrook and Lebron all play far below their standards and level of play. Dirk had nothing to do with that. Kobe, Lebron and Wade usually out produce Dirk. And all have several playoffs where they had superior outputs to Dirk's output in this playoff run. Was Chauncey Billups considered better than Kobe and Shaq? Should he called a better player than Kobe because he looked way better in that series. Heck no. Without Ben Wallace we see that Billups would have been helpless.

Kidd was the second best player to me on that team and Tyson isn't a clear third either but he had it so that Kidd and Marion had the best defensive stands ever in a playoff run. Better than Hakeems, better than Mutombo's, and better than Ben Wallace's run. Dirk can't claim that.

Dmavs, the Bulls defense didn't come close to stopping Lebron like that but you claim they win on defense. You can't have it both ways. The Bulls stopped Wade in the fourth quarter, only when they put Rose on him.[/QUOTE]

We won because we played good defense and happened to have Dirk go nuts in close games. If you talk about which is more valuable...it was Dirk. And you continue to ignore what Dirk did to the defense...which was make it better by 3.6 points when he was on the floor.

What good is that defense without a guy giving you 28/8/3 on 61% TS and coming through in the clutch? You do realize that 16 of the Mavs 21 playoff games went into crunch time...right? We didn't blow anyone out consistently. Shit, the Lakers were ahead in 2 of the first 3 games with like 9 minutes left.

Context? How about you stop ignoring what Dirk did and what he did factually to the defense.

Like...is it just nothing to you that the Mavs fell apart without Dirk in the playoffs? Getting 13.2 points worse on offense in addition to slipping on defense?

The Mavs had something around a 106 defensive rating in the playoffs. That is good, but hardly this all time great defense or something...it was worse than the 09 Lakers defense for example.

But the offense...that was special. When Dirk was in the game the offense had a 115 rating. That is great

[QUOTE=Pointguard]:lol You are hopeless stupid clown, on a good day. Noah was hurt and was way off his game, D Rose's last healthy year and wasn't performing well the whole year. He got benched twice in ECF in the fourth quarter that year.

Chandler won DPOY the next year and was a best bigman defender that year in the playoffs for Dallas. The current Knicks would have a better record if he played and Mello missed the games instead. Chandler brings a ton of intangibles. But if you don't know, you don't know. Dirk had a ton of great things to say about his character and influence.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, he's a good player. You seem to think that I'm arguing that he's an awful player. No, he's good. Just good. By no means some kind of star player that turned the Mavs into some kind of super team.

Case in point, nobody in the world picked Dallas to win the title in 2011. If they were so fcuking stacked, why was EVERYBODY picking them to LOSE in the first round to Portland?

[QUOTE=Black and White]I am not denying that he was essential to the title run for Dirk, but im saying that the notion that you think Dirk had too much help is insane, look at the list i put in front of you, did he have any players on his team of that quality??[/QUOTE]
Hey I didn't mean that post for you. Sorry about that.

While the second best player wasn't very distinct they had a lot of things every champion or runner up would wish for:

1. The Mav's had the best defensive stand at guard ever - greatly reducing roles of Kobe/Westbrook and Wade.

2. The Mav's had the best defensive stand at SF ever - greatly reducing roles of Lebron and Durant.

3. They had great 3point shooting for most of the playoffs (Kidd and Terry

4. Terry was as clutch as any number 2 player in recent memory and scored 20ppg in their wins and was very efficient in the final three games. To me it was better than most number two's in the last 10 years.

5. Their main player played bad in one game, and played bad in three quarters in another win, yet the team pulled out wins.

6. Dallas played their game (primarily Kidd)

7. Kidd, primarily controlled tempo perfectly and didn't turn the ball over.

8. Teams did not penetrate on them due to Chandler

9. Teams did not run on them (primarily Kidd)

Dirk would be at the top but it was a very much a great team effort.

Both SA and OKC beat Miami if these qualities, minus Dirk, existed.