Wilt Chamberlain scoring highlights 1960-1968

[QUOTE=dankok8]Kareem had a 35/17/5 .574 season against Wilt, Thurmond, Cowens, Lanier, Hayes, Unseld, Haywood, Bellamy, Wicks, Lucas etc. In years Wilt scored 33-37 ppg he was never near Kareem's efficiency in 71-72 especially when we take free throws into account.

Again I would definitely argue that '71 to '73 Thurmond was better than '65 to '67 Thurmond. Better statistically, looks stronger, and more experienced.

Anyways believe what you want but [B]no informed mind will say Wilt is FAR BETTER than Kareem or vice versa. It's very close.[/B][/QUOTE]
[url]http://youtu.be/MSTt_TxoFVo?t=3m18s[/url]

Rick Barry disagrees with you. Is Rick Barry not an informed mind?

[I]"[B]Wilt Chamberlain was the most dominant and the greatest center to ever play the game bar none[/B], I mean I love ya know... you can talk about [B]Kareem[/B], and you can talk about Shaq, and you can talk about Hakeem Olajuwon and... [B]there is no one, no one, that is [SIZE="3"]close[/SIZE] to what Wilt Chamberlain did in his career.[/B]"[/I]

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW][url]http://youtu.be/MSTt_TxoFVo?t=3m18s[/url]

Rick Barry disagrees with you. Is Rick Barry not an informed mind?

[I]"[B]Wilt Chamberlain was the most dominant and the greatest center to ever play the game bar none[/B], I mean I love ya know... you can talk about [B]Kareem[/B], and you can talk about Shaq, and you can talk about Hakeem Olajuwon and... [B]there is no one, no one, that is close to what Wilt Chamberlain did in his career.[/B]"[/I][/QUOTE]

The only time the Wilt-bashers quoted Barry, was when an early career Rick slammed Wilt. And, of course, Barry apologized many times over. But have you ever read Bill Simmons using your above quote?

Here is Dr J saying Kareem is the GOAT...

[url]http://youtu.be/oQ3nJ7ZfiF8[/url]

Then the Mountain Man, Bill Walton, offers his opinion.

[QUOTE]"I lived to play against Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. He was the greatest player I ever played against, by far. Better than Jordan. Better than Magic. better than Bird. Better than Dr. J. Better than the best of the best that I played against. Better than Rick Barry. He was my source of motivation for everything I ever did. Everything I did was to try to beat this guy. I lived to play against him, and I played my best ball against him. No matter what I threw at him, though, it seemed like he'd score 50 against me. His left leg belongs in the Smithsonian. And it wasn't just offense. He was a great defender and rebounder, a great passer, a wonderful leader. He was phenomenal. "----Bill Walton[/QUOTE]


Honestly player opinions are always inherently biased and bit worthless. They seldom care to intellectually compare eras.

[QUOTE=dankok8]Here is Dr J saying Kareem is the GOAT...

[url]http://youtu.be/oQ3nJ7ZfiF8[/url]

Then the Mountain Man, Bill Walton, offers his opinion.




Honestly player opinions are always inherently biased and bit worthless. They seldom care to intellectually compare eras.[/QUOTE]

Neither played against Wilt, either, much less a PRIME Chamberlain who dominated the NBA like no one since. Including KAJ, who played FOUR years IN the WILT-era, and never approached ANY of his scoring, rebounding, or efficiency records, was nowhere as close as dominant against the same centers, and in fact, struggled far more against an aging Nate, and in his biggest post-season games of that period.

And of course, KAJ, himself, has already conceded that fact...

[QUOTE=dankok8]Here is Dr J saying Kareem is the GOAT...

[url]http://youtu.be/oQ3nJ7ZfiF8[/url]

Then the Mountain Man, Bill Walton, offers his opinion.




Honestly player opinions are always inherently biased and bit worthless. They seldom care to intellectually compare eras.[/QUOTE]
Walton never played against Wilt. Dr. J never played against Wilt aside from an all star game. (Btw Dr. J still has Wilt as his starting center on his all-time starting 5 anyways).

Barry played against both Jabbar and Wilt. He's had more experience not only watching Wilt, but playing against him than either Walton or Dr. J had.

Here's also some words out of Kareem's own mouth:

[QUOTE=Kareem Abdul-Jabbar]“Dear Scottie, I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective.

[B]You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked.

Oh by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams. Every team had the opportunity to amass a solid nucleus. Only the cream of the basketball world got to play then. So MJ has to be appraised in perspective. His incredible athletic ability, charisma and leadership on the court helped to make basketball popular around the world — no question about that. But in terms of greatness MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt.[/B]

In terms of winning, Michael excelled as both an emotional and scoring leader but Bill Russell’s Celtics won 8 consecutive NBA Championships. Bills rebounding average per game is over 22.5 lifetime, MJs best rebounding years was 8 per game (1989). But we will never know exactly how many shots Bill Russell blocked because again, they never kept that statistic while he played. However, if you ask anybody that played against Russell they will just roll their eyes and say he blocked all the shots he wanted to block in the crucial moments of a game.

Bill played on a total of 11 Championship teams and as you very well know, Scottie, the ring is the thing, and everything else is just statistics. So I would advise you to do a little homework before crowning Michael or Lebron with the title of best ever. As dominant as he is, Lebron has yet to win a championship. I must say that it looks like Miami has finally put the team together that will change that circumstance. Its my hope that today’s players get a better perspective on exactly what has been done in this league in the days of yore.

The change in style to the game is not any indication as to how many really talented players there are in the game. So the fact that skilled players come from all over the world does not change the quantity of outstanding talent. [B]Simply put the number of players that could have stopped Wilt Chamberlain in his prime has not increased.[/B] Affectionately, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, NBA’s All-Time Leading Scorer.[/QUOTE]

Seems even Kareem hold's Wilt's scoring records and dominance in high esteem, no? :confusedshrug:

Player opinions aren't "worthless" that's a nice easy way out. Player opinions vary, and if you understand how much thought players have put into their lists (some have put much more thought into it that others), or how much certain players are students of the game/games history, and also very importantly, what criteria they are basing their opinions on, than their opinions are indeed quite valuable.

Doctor J's opinion is one that I respect a great deal. He put a lot of thought into his lists, and explains why he chooses who he chooses (his 'GOAT' is Kareem, due to his blend of career accomplishments HS to Pro), his all time starting 5 is Oscar, West, Baylor, Russell, and Chamberlain because they were his all time starting 5 growing up and I'm sure those guys are his basketball hero's. Rick Barry has thought about his opinion too for quite some time, as he once thought of Wilt as a loser, but then did a complete 180 and has called him the greatest of all time since the early 70's. Kareem also, is somebody who does not just mention great players on a whim, he is one of the most intellectual basketball historians of all the retired players. His opinion means a lot. As does Sonny Hill, who echo's Kareem's exact thoughts on who the 'greatest of all time is' (if by individual dominance, it's Wilt, if by winning, it's Russell, period - IE he also thinks it's not Jordan).

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Walton never played against Wilt. Dr. J never played against Wilt aside from an all star game. (Btw Dr. J still has Wilt as his starting center on his all-time starting 5 anyways).

Barry played against both Jabbar and Wilt. He's had more experience not only watching Wilt, but playing against him than either Walton or Dr. J had.

Here's also some words out of Kareem's own mouth:



Seems even Kareem hold's Wilt's scoring records and dominance in high esteem, no? :confusedshrug:

Player opinions aren't "worthless" that's a nice easy way out. Player opinions vary, and if you understand how much thought players have put into their lists (some have put much more thought into it that others), or how much certain players are students of the game/games history, and also very importantly, what criteria they are basing their opinions on, than their opinions are indeed quite valuable.

Doctor J's opinion is one that I respect a great deal. He put a lot of thought into his lists, and explains why he chooses who he chooses (his 'GOAT' is Kareem, due to his blend of career accomplishments HS to Pro), his all time starting 5 is Oscar, West, Baylor, Russell, and Chamberlain because they were his all time starting 5 growing up and I'm sure those guys are his basketball hero's. Rick Barry has thought about his opinion too for quite some time, as he once thought of Wilt as a loser, but then did a complete 180 and has called him the greatest of all time since the early 70's. Kareem also, is somebody who does not just mention great players on a whim, he is one of the most intellectual basketball historians of all the retired players. His opinion means a lot. As does Sonny Hill, who echo's Kareem's exact thoughts on who the 'greatest of all time is' (if by individual dominance, it's Wilt, if by winning, it's Russell, period - IE he also thinks it's not Jordan).[/QUOTE]

Case closed.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Walton never played against Wilt. Dr. J never played against Wilt aside from an all star game. (Btw Dr. J still has Wilt as his starting center on his all-time starting 5 anyways).

Barry played against both Jabbar and Wilt. He's had more experience not only watching Wilt, but playing against him than either Walton or Dr. J had.

Here's also some words out of Kareem's own mouth:



Seems even Kareem hold's Wilt's scoring records and dominance in high esteem, no? :confusedshrug:

Player opinions aren't "worthless" that's a nice easy way out. Player opinions vary, and if you understand how much thought players have put into their lists (some have put much more thought into it that others), or how much certain players are students of the game/games history, and also very importantly, what criteria they are basing their opinions on, than their opinions are indeed quite valuable.

Doctor J's opinion is one that I respect a great deal. He put a lot of thought into his lists, and explains why he chooses who he chooses (his 'GOAT' is Kareem, due to his blend of career accomplishments HS to Pro), his all time starting 5 is Oscar, West, Baylor, Russell, and Chamberlain because they were his all time starting 5 growing up and I'm sure those guys are his basketball hero's. Rick Barry has thought about his opinion too for quite some time, as he once thought of Wilt as a loser, but then did a complete 180 and has called him the greatest of all time since the early 70's. Kareem also, is somebody who does not just mention great players on a whim, he is one of the most intellectual basketball historians of all the retired players. His opinion means a lot. As does Sonny Hill, who echo's Kareem's exact thoughts on who the 'greatest of all time is' (if by individual dominance, it's Wilt, if by winning, it's Russell, period - IE he also thinks it's not Jordan).[/QUOTE]
Well, anything the Doc says is gospel truth to me:bowdown: Sonny Hill has been telling stories about Wilt since I was a young boy worshiping the early 80s Sixer teams. As a big Moses Malone fan back then, I could not believe Sonny Hill had the gall to say that Wilt from the 60s was better than Moses. WTF? Of course over time as I got to know more of the Sixers history, this became apparent.

I do know that while Doc was instrumental in convincing the Sixers franchise to finally retire Wilt's number, Doc holds Bill Russel, perhaps the biggest winner ever in pro sports, in the highest regard of all of them.

[QUOTE=Dr.J4ever]Well, anything the Doc says is gospel truth to me:bowdown: Sonny Hill has been telling stories about Wilt since I was a young boy worshiping the early 80s Sixer teams. As a big Moses Malone fan back then, I could not believe Sonny Hill had the gall to say that Wilt from the 60s was better than Moses. WTF? Of course over time as I got to know more of the Sixers history, this became apparent.

I do know that while Doc was instrumental in convincing the Sixers franchise to finally retire Wilt's number, Doc holds Bill Russel, perhaps the biggest winner ever in pro sports, in the highest regard of all of them.[/QUOTE]
I should point out his 6th man - which I found to be brilliant - is Connie Hawkins who as the Doc puts it "can come off the bench and play at guard, forward, or center"

Being that I am also a fan of the 60's crop of players I think Dr. J picked one of the sickest lineups, def the 6 most talented players of the 60's decade IMO. Oscar Robertson's starting 5 is identical, but his 6th that he picked was Bob Pettit. Doctor J is a true student of the game though, if you ever hear him in interviews often times the interviewer be it some journalist or host from NBAtv or someone from ESPN asks a question pertaining to the Doc and his many fantastic moves, often the question is a leading question "how did it feel to be the first to _____" or something along those lines. He's one of the only players I know that will cordially correct the interviewer and mention the name of the guy who deserves to be mentioned that came before him and did the move. There's a couple players I've heard in interviews that do that, you can tell right away they have a lot more knowledge about the game's history than the average player. Sonny Hill is another guy that will often politely correct interviewers leading questions to give credit where credit is due to players of the past, his knowledge goes back even further to to the 40's, 50's, etc. He'll cite obscure Jewish players from the 40's and 50's as being innovative great basketball players and point to guys from the Harlem Rens. Have nothing but respect for people who can trace basketball knowledge back that far.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Walton never played against Wilt. Dr. J never played against Wilt aside from an all star game. (Btw Dr. J still has Wilt as his starting center on his all-time starting 5 anyways).

Barry played against both Jabbar and Wilt. He's had more experience not only watching Wilt, but playing against him than either Walton or Dr. J had.

Here's also some words out of Kareem's own mouth:



Seems even Kareem hold's Wilt's scoring records and dominance in high esteem, no? :confusedshrug:

Player opinions aren't "worthless" that's a nice easy way out. Player opinions vary, and if you understand how much thought players have put into their lists (some have put much more thought into it that others), or how much certain players are students of the game/games history, and also very importantly, what criteria they are basing their opinions on, than their opinions are indeed quite valuable.

Doctor J's opinion is one that I respect a great deal. He put a lot of thought into his lists, and explains why he chooses who he chooses (his 'GOAT' is Kareem, due to his blend of career accomplishments HS to Pro), his all time starting 5 is Oscar, West, Baylor, Russell, and Chamberlain because they were his all time starting 5 growing up and I'm sure those guys are his basketball hero's. Rick Barry has thought about his opinion too for quite some time, as he once thought of Wilt as a loser, but then did a complete 180 and has called him the greatest of all time since the early 70's. Kareem also, is somebody who does not just mention great players on a whim, he is one of the most intellectual basketball historians of all the retired players. His opinion means a lot. As does Sonny Hill, who echo's Kareem's exact thoughts on who the 'greatest of all time is' (if by individual dominance, it's Wilt, if by winning, it's Russell, period - IE he also thinks it's not Jordan).[/QUOTE]

It's true Walton and Dr J never played against Wilt but they clearly think Kareem > Jordan. Honestly player opinions shift all the time... see like Rick Barry who used to shit on Wilt and how he was terrible in the clutch. And they always have an inherent bias. Most players praise their own eras in one way or another. I personally don't put much (didn't say none...) credibility into what those guys say.

And it's funny how in Kareem's letter to Pippen he spends the 1st part hyping up Wilt's statistical records and then in the 5th paragraph he says rings are what matters and everything else is just stats. He kind of contradicts himself. What is his criteria for greatness?

Wilt has the GOAT stats. Russell is the GOAT winner. Kareem has the GOAT career resume. Jordan has the GOAT impact on the game. Maybe if even NBA players can't agree on a GOAT maybe there isn't one? And I don't think there is a consensus GOAT player.

[QUOTE=dankok8]It's true Walton and Dr J never played against Wilt but they clearly think Kareem > Jordan. Honestly player opinions shift all the time... see like Rick Barry who used to shit on Wilt and how he was terrible in the clutch. And they always have an inherent bias. Most players praise their own eras in one way or another. I personally don't put much (didn't say none...) credibility into what those guys say.

And it's funny how in Kareem's letter to Pippen he spends the 1st part hyping up Wilt's statistical records and then in the 5th paragraph he says rings are what matters and everything else is just stats. He kind of contradicts himself. What is his criteria for greatness?

Wilt has the GOAT stats. Russell is the GOAT winner. Kareem has the GOAT career resume. Jordan has the GOAT impact on the game. Maybe if even NBA players can't agree on a GOAT maybe there isn't one? And I don't think there is a consensus GOAT player.[/QUOTE]
Incorrect, Rick Barry's opinion shifted once, he apologized for negative things he said, and proceeded to call Wilt the greatest of all time for the past 35+ years. Tell me a player who isn't paid to be on tv that has an opinion that 'shifts all the time'?. Quit trying to dismiss such quotes, you said nobody in their right mind would think Wilt was better than Kareem and that it wasn't close and I provided an example of a former player who DID think just that and you're just trying to write it off so you aren't 'proven wrong' as it were. I provided examples of other players who also think very highly of Wilt including none other than Kareem himself. Stop trying to write these off as low value shifty opinions that mean little to nothing. The people I provided examples of I deliberately picked because they represent the antithesis of what you tried to write them off as, shifty and cheap. I didn't cite Magic ESPN Johnson did I? Those individuals I quoted are true students of the sport, who understand not only the game but also the game's history at a high level.

As for you not understanding Kareem's letter?
[url]http://youtu.be/LfHI8BBIWTk?t=20m40s[/url]

Listen to it from the words of another man and maybe you'll 'get it'. Sonny Hill echo's Kareem's 'contradiction' almost exactly. It isn't a contradiction at all. Who's the greatest winner of all time? Why it's Bill Russell. Who's the most dominant of all time? Why that would be Wilt Chamberlain. You can talk about anyone else you want, but nobody dominated the sport so completely and emphatically as Wilt, and nobody won the game so consistently and for so many years as Bill Russell. As such, to both Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Sonny Hill, those two names appear to represent the pinnacle of basketball in their eyes. It just depends on what you favor on a given day. Make sense? As Sonny Hill puts it "I'm tellin you the story (about the greatest) the way it needs to be told".

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Again, Chamberlain's post-season scoring and FG%'s declined SLIGHTLY, from his regular season numbers[/quote]
Slightly? Again:
[code]
60-66 PPG MPG FG% TS%
PO 32,8 47,5 50,5 52,0
RS 39,6 47,0 51,1 52,9
[/code]
Drop off in scoring efficiency is in fact marginal (especially if we adjust for competition

Good footage.

I had heard about his fadeaway and seen a clip or 2 of it, but this one has a lot more.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Incorrect, Rick Barry's opinion shifted once, he apologized for negative things he said, and proceeded to call Wilt the greatest of all time for the past 35+ years. Tell me a player who isn't paid to be on tv that has an opinion that 'shifts all the time'?. Quit trying to dismiss such quotes, [B]you said nobody in their right mind would think Wilt was better than Kareem and that it wasn't close[/B] and I provided an example of a former player who DID think just that and you're just trying to write it off so you aren't 'proven wrong' as it were. I provided examples of other players who also think very highly of Wilt including none other than Kareem himself. Stop trying to write these off as low value shifty opinions that mean little to nothing. The people I provided examples of I deliberately picked because they represent the antithesis of what you tried to write them off as, shifty and cheap. I didn't cite Magic ESPN Johnson did I? Those individuals I quoted are true students of the sport, who understand not only the game but also the game's history at a high level.

As for you not understanding Kareem's letter?
[url]http://youtu.be/LfHI8BBIWTk?t=20m40s[/url]

Listen to it from the words of another man and maybe you'll 'get it'. Sonny Hill echo's Kareem's 'contradiction' almost exactly. It isn't a contradiction at all. Who's the greatest winner of all time? Why it's Bill Russell. Who's the most dominant of all time? Why that would be Wilt Chamberlain. You can talk about anyone else you want, but nobody dominated the sport so completely and emphatically as Wilt, and nobody won the game so consistently and for so many years as Bill Russell. As such, to both Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Sonny Hill, those two names appear to represent the pinnacle of basketball in their eyes. It just depends on what you favor on a given day. Make sense? As Sonny Hill puts it "I'm tellin you the story (about the greatest) the way it needs to be told".[/QUOTE]

Please don't misquote me because that's not what I said. What I said is that whether you argue for Wilt and Kareem as the better player it's crazy to say it isn't close either way. It is very close and debatable and nobody in their right mind should say "Wilt easily" or "Kareem easily".

Jordan/Kareem aren't as statistically dominant as Wilt or as great winners as Russell. BUT they are greater winners than Wilt and more statistically dominant than Russell. Ultimately how you rank players depends on how you weigh the different categories. Wilt and Russell are the two extremes while Jordan and Kareem are high on both the winning and dominance scales but not at the top of either.

I personally weigh winning more than sheer numbers. I hugely believe in intangibles and it's a fact that stats can be greatly inflated and correlate poorly with impact. Thus I would have Jordan, Kareem and Russell over Wilt. Again that's just me.

[QUOTE=dankok8]Please don't misquote me because that's not what I said. What I said is that whether you argue for Wilt and Kareem as the better player it's crazy to say it isn't close either way. [B]It is very close and debatable and nobody in their right mind should say "Wilt easily" or "Kareem easily"[/B].

Jordan/Kareem aren't as statistically dominant as Wilt or as great winners as Russell. BUT they are greater winners than Wilt and more statistically dominant than Russell. Ultimately how you rank players depends on how you weigh the different categories. Wilt and Russell are the two extremes while Jordan and Kareem are high on both the winning and dominance scales but not at the top of either.

I personally weigh winning more than sheer numbers. I hugely believe in intangibles and it's a fact that stats can be greatly inflated and correlate poorly with impact. Thus I would have Jordan, Kareem and Russell over Wilt. Again that's just me.[/QUOTE]
Once again:

[url]http://youtu.be/MSTt_TxoFVo?t=3m18s[/url]

Rick Barry thinks Wilt, and no one (including Kareem, who's name he mentions) is close. Therefore you're wrong. Say "okay, I was wrong", go ahead do it :cheers:

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Once again:

[url]http://youtu.be/MSTt_TxoFVo?t=3m18s[/url]

Rick Barry thinks Wilt, and no one (including Kareem, who's name he mentions) is close. Therefore you're wrong. Say "okay, I was wrong", go ahead do it :cheers:[/QUOTE]

Again I give little credibility to Barry's quote:

1) He changed his mind and used to trash Wilt. How do you make such a radical 180 degree turn?

2) He wasn't exactly a well-liked player and used to piss off his teammates. The words intangibles and leadership have always eluded him.

3) He was never known as a particularly cerebral player or student of the game.

4) He played in the same era and actually lost a finals series to Wilt's Sixers. It's easy to see how it benefits his own legacy to prop up Wilt.

[B]Basically Barry's opinion is likely to be biased and how informed he is... also very open to debate. [/B]


What do you think of Oscar's quote on YT when he says Lebron is better than Jordan and in a class of his own? And mind you this was before LBJ even won a title.