Phil Jackson on Scottie Pippen's as a leader

So 14 pages in, after numerous temper tantrums not a single person has disputed the evidence in the OP, which comes from Phil Jackson:

*Pippen ran the offense
*Pippen ran the defense
*Pippen was the team's vocal leader
*Teammates turned to Pippen for various forms of leadership, i.e. support, advice, help, and inspiration

Pippen's teammates echo these same sentiments. His coaches and teammates in Portland say he did the same things there. Yet we have Jordan mythologists dismissing these facts because they do not suit their ridiculous desire to see the world as they want to see it, paramount of which is the goal of denying anyone else any credit for Chicago's success. Is there any fan base outside of the Church of Jordan like this?

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]I'm not tearing down Pippen? We're all responding to Roundball's obvious agenda. And that dude ADMITS he hates Jordan.

I don't dislike Pippen at all. He is what he is ... what I've always claimed. I take nothing away from him. He's the 2nd in command of a dynasty. A guy who finally got mentally tough, and skilled enough to supplement the greatest player of all-time. Then they ran rough shot over the league.

OP literally making the case that Pippen was THE LEADER of the Bulls. No one with a brain, or whoever played for Chicago, certainly not against them in the 90s would make that asinine claim.

:oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Wasnt directed at you specifically, nor did it pertain to just this thread...

[QUOTE]So 14 pages in, after numerous temper tantrums not a single person has disputed the evidence in the OP, which comes from Phil Jackson:

*Pippen ran the offense
*Pippen ran the defense
*Pippen was the team's vocal leader
*Teammates turned to Pippen for various forms of leadership, i.e. support, advice, help, and inspiration

Pippen's teammates echo these same sentiments. His coaches and teammates in Portland say he did the same things there. Yet we have Jordan mythologists dismissing these facts because they do not suit their ridiculous desire to see the world as they want to see it, paramount of which is the goal of denying anyone else any credit for Chicago's success. Is there any fan base outside of the Church of Jordan like this?[/QUOTE]

Are you of the belief that they were co-leaders?? I'm fine with that opinion...
Or do u think Pip was the main/better leader?

What I go by is the available historical evidence, whether it is regarding a basketball team a presidential administration or another historical entity. The evidence I have seen suggests they both had leadership roles, performed different functions (Cartwright also was a leader) of leadership. This is the case on probably every team. The Lakers had Fisher and Kobe. Miami had Haslem and LeBron. The idea that among 12-15 people there will be a sole leader is unrealistic and unhealthy for a team.

Some of what also has been suggested, the notion of there being a hierarchy with people reporting to one player, is absurd. Basketball teams are not like normal workplaces with layers of authority. Teams have 12-15 co-equal players--no player has coercive supervisory power--a head coach and a couple of assistant coaches. In a normal workplace you would indeed have some front line supervisor of small groups. That isn't the case in basketball. Those duties are performed by the coach and assistant coaches. For players to lead they need to convince their peers--their co-workers--to follow them. They can't force it and there is no "captain and lieutenant" type relationship where one player reports to and serves as the deputy to another. Just more mythology.

just go ahead and walk into a gym, and if there's someone there busting their ass off, working off their tail bones.

that might just give you enough motivation to do a few extra reps.


if you're that guy already, good for you.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Yeah, but you weren't in the huddle. You weren't in the locker room. You weren't at the practices. You simply don't want to believe he was and are reaching a conclusion based on faith. [/quote]

How were things in the huddle and locker room?


[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]To me there simply is too much evidence in the other direction to reach any conclusion but that Pippen was a great team leader.[/quote]

You've demonstrated that you are not unbiased though, you've presented the same evidence you've seen to everyone here and most no one is convinced.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]The purpose of this thread, though, was to directly refute the NUMEROUS statements made attacking Pippen's leadership by MJ stans over the years.[/quote]

Honestly I've never heard or seen this happen once. You are just really really in love with Pippen it seems.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]What this thread does--and what the teammates thread also will do--is present evidence from people who would know what really happened on those teams.[/quote]

Just not evidence to draw the conclusion you'd like to draw.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]It is then up to people to reach their conclusions based on the evidence. [/quote]

And they have. Pippen was a good leader, but not THE LEADER on the Bulls.


[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]They are perfectly free to reject it. What is pathetic, though, is MJ stans' attempts to chill debate by throwing a collective temper tantrum everyone time they hear something that does not fit with the dictates of the Church of Jordan.[/quote]

Have not seen this happening either. No idea what you are talking about.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]The usual MJ stans were in this thread and you even had hypocritical temper tantrums from 2 others who strangely view anything in favor of Pippen as an attack on Jordan--and an attack on Jordan is a heinous deed indeed. Meanwhile Pippen gets ripped for 10 pages by 6-7 posters and those individuals don't say a word. :oldlol: [/quote]

The reason I've had conversations with you for the past week is to decide if you are or are not what you describe above. You obviously know the history pretty well, but you have a pretty one-dimensional fanatic approach.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Jordan mythology does not have the same chokehold it did a few years ago. I am glad to see that and hope the nuanced reality that was the 90's Bulls continues to break free from the cloak of mythology.[/QUOTE]

This sentence here sounds like something a Politician would say about an opponent.

To me, it makes you sounds a bit delusional or "butt-hurt" as the kids say. It reminds me of the multitude of Kobe Fans here and their constant clinging to any hope that their hero could be as good as Jordan. Or Shaq. Or Duncan. Or LeBron. etc.

I think you need to listen to the more informed, respectful posters in these threads who are trying to tell you how your threads are being perceived. Ignore the "stans" as you call them. If that's what they are, they should be on your ignore list.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]So 14 pages in, after numerous temper tantrums not a single person has disputed the evidence in the OP, which comes from Phil Jackson:

*Pippen ran the offense
*Pippen ran the defense
*Pippen was the team's vocal leader
*Teammates turned to Pippen for various forms of leadership, i.e. support, advice, help, and inspiration[/QUOTE]

No one wants to dispute the truth, just the conclusion you are drawing from it. Lots of us have done that. The burden is on you, not those of us with the consensus opinion.

I don't think it's fair to say Pippen ran the offense though. The triangle runs itself and as Jackson has often said, without all five guys working within it at once it breaks down. So lets not pretend he was John Stockton or anything. Pippen initiated the offense from a one guard front as oppose to the traditional two guard front in the triangle.

Idiots like the OP call us "Jordan Mythologists" yet here they are spewing bullshit about how Pippen was the man on those Bulls teams. :facepalm

Makes you wonder how insecure these idiots are. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE]How were things in the huddle and locker room?
[/QUOTE]

That will be in the upcoming teammate thread.

I am not going to get into the various personal aspersions and condescension (see how people react to that kind of "leadership" :lol ).This thread achieved its objective--my one error was responding to the trolls and allowing the thread to get derailed, but if you remove MJ stans there was a good discussion. I did want to address, though:

[QUOTE]You've demonstrated that you are not unbiased though, you've presented the same evidence you've seen to everyone here and most no one is convinced. [/QUOTE]

1) "Most no one is convinced." If you count MJ stans. Outside of them several posters were. My audience is not MJ stans. If no one is convinced--if it is mere trolling--why not ignore it? Every Pippen thread has the same crew of MJ stans.

2) I have never claimed to be unbiased (while demonstrating various consistent biases like some). My objective here, at least regarding the 90's Bulls, is to counter the claims of MJ stans. People can reach their own conclusions but there is a need to hear something beyond the existing narrative. This is where the board suffered from the loss of Fatal9 and ShaqAttack3234. I've received several positive private messages from those glad to hear a different perspective since my return (I rarely posted in 2012 and 2013--yet Mike fans were still ripping Pippen. DatAsh, what say you?). Again, it often is not me talking. I do what historians do and cite primary and secondary sources. It is up to readers to reach conclusions from that and other information they have. Isn't that what a forum is for?

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]1) "Most no one is convinced." If you count MJ stans. [B]Outside of them several posters were.[/B] My audience is not MJ stans. If no one is convinced--if it is mere trolling--why not ignore it? Every Pippen thread has the same crew of MJ stans.[/QUOTE]

You mean stans of other players? :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]That will be in the upcoming teammate thread.

1) "Most no one is convinced." If you count MJ stans. Outside of them several posters were. My audience is not MJ stans.[/quote]

Again, ignore the "stans" no reason not to. I'm almost to that point with you. And yes they are your audience as you constantly are referring to them. Stop.

And no, no one has been convinced. Some people agree with you I'm sure, but I doubt the even read what you posted, they just hate MJ or like you, hate that MJ is considered the best player ever by almost everyone.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]2) I have never claimed to be unbiased (while demonstrating consistent biases like some). My objective here, at least regarding the 90's Bulls, is to counter the claims of MJ stans. People can reach their own conclusions but there is a need to hear something beyond the existing narrative. This is where the board suffered from the loss of Fatal9 and ShaqAttack3234.[/QUOTE]

You're not doing what those guys did though.

[QUOTE=Asukal]You mean stans of other players? :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

In some cases yes. I am not familiar enough with the posting history of some of the others to comment. Stans of other players exist in the populace. MJ stans, too, are a part of the basketball fan mosaic. I am just not here to convince them and don't expect them to. Frankly, I don't judge things by how many people are or are not convinced. This isn't a focus group with that kind of data available. Moreover, most people "on" message boards are lurkers.


[QUOTE]You're not doing what those guys did though.[/QUOTE]

I was accused of [I]being[/I] Fatal9 for years. [I]You[/I] may distinguish me from him; most people viewed me as another side of his coin and MJ stans swore for years that I actually was him (now some of them call me pauk). :roll: We basically said the same things, as far as the 90's Bulls were concerned, while using different approaches.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]In some cases yes. I am not familiar with the posting history of some of the others to comment. Stans of other players exist in the populace. MJ stans, too, are a part of the basketball fan mosaic. I am just not here to convince them and don't expect them to. Frankly, I don't judge things by how many people are or are not convinced. This isn't a focus group with that kind of data available. Moreover, most people "on" message boards are lurkers.




I was accused of [I]being[/I] Fatal9 for years. [I]You[/I] may distinguish me from him; most people viewed me as another side of his coin and MJ stans swore for years that I actually was him (now some of them call me pauk). :roll: We basically said the same things, as far as the 90's Bulls were concerned, while using different approaches.[/QUOTE]
They thought you was troll Fatal9 When he first came here he was trolling and admitted it . Shaqattack is a far superior poster. You just try to downplay MJ. And no the offense DoD not run through Pippen.

When did he admit to "trolling"? What is the definition of "trolling"?

Yeah, ShaqAttack was the best poster on here. He just provided a more favorable view of Pippen than some and was a regular in Pippen threads.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]When did he admit to "trolling"? What is the definition of "trolling"?

Yeah, ShaqAttack was the best poster on here. He just provided a more favorable view of Pippen than some and was a regular in Pippen threads.[/QUOTE]
After he got exposed. This guy was putting up Mj avatars for God sakes.

Link?

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]Again, ignore the "stans" no reason not to. I'm almost to that point with you. And yes they are your audience as you constantly are referring to them. Stop.

And no, no one has been convinced. Some people agree with you I'm sure, but I doubt the even read what you posted, they just hate MJ or like you, hate that MJ is considered the best player ever by almost everyone.

You're not doing what those guys did though.[/QUOTE]

Quit with the patronising rhetoric or the implication that people are unbiased - show me someone who says they're unbiased and I'll show you a liar. You're nobody to tell anybody else how to post. Especially considering that it's clear as day you don't agree with the OP, and not so much how he is posting. You're not the arbiter of fairness or what passes as a legitimate discussion. Honestly, the pretension is grating.