prime dirk vs current durant?

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Hey I didn't mean that post for you. Sorry about that.

While the second best player wasn't very distinct they had a lot of things every champion or runner up would wish for:

1. The Mav's had the best defensive stand at guard ever - greatly reducing roles of Kobe/Westbrook and Wade.

2. The Mav's had the best defensive stand at SF ever - greatly reducing roles of Lebron and Durant.

3. They had great 3point shooting for most of the playoffs (Kidd and Terry

4. Terry was as clutch as any number 2 player in recent memory and scored 20ppg in their wins and was very efficient in the final three games. To me it was better than most number two's in the last 10 years.

5. Their main player played bad in one game, and played bad in three quarters in another win, yet the team pulled out wins.

6. Dallas played their game (primarily Kidd)

7. Kidd, primarily controlled tempo perfectly and didn't turn the ball over.

8. Teams did not penetrate on them due to Chandler

9. Teams did not run on them (primarily Kidd)

Dirk would be at the top but it was a very much a great team effort.

Both SA and OKC beat Miami if these qualities, minus Dirk, existed.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you that team ball will take you to more championships than a team with a superstar and some role players, all the players stepped up in that series and played their part, but Dirk was the one that lead from the front, it was his work ethic and play level that forced the team to elevate theirs to match it and they did.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]Yeah, he's a good player. You seem to think that I'm arguing that he's an awful player. No, he's good. Just good. By no means some kind of star player that turned the Mavs into some kind of super team.
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They weren't a super team before or after him. That's for sure.

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Case in point, nobody in the world picked Dallas to win the title in 2011. If they were so fcuking stacked, why was EVERYBODY picking them to LOSE in the first round to Portland?[/QUOTE]

I have post here saying that Tyson was much better than they were giving him credit in Feb. of 2011. People might have expected Portland to win because they really thought Dirk would flop, he had somewhat of a different reputation before 2011.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]They weren't a super team before or after him. That's for sure.



I have post here saying that Tyson was much better than they were giving him credit in Feb. of 2011. People might have expected Portland to win because they really thought Dirk would flop,[B] he had somewhat of a different reputation before 2011[/B].[/QUOTE]

Before the chip alot of people still considered Dirk one of the best PFs of all time.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]They weren't a super team before or after him. That's for sure.



I have post here saying that Tyson was much better than they were giving him credit in Feb. of 2011. People might have expected Portland to win because they really thought Dirk would flop, he had somewhat of a different reputation before 2011.[/QUOTE]
So what point is it exactly that you're trying to make. That Dirk isn't that good? Or, that Durant is better than Dirk ever was.

Don't dance around. Just a straight answer.

IMO, prime Dirk is clearly better than anything we have yet seen from Durant.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]We won because we played good defense and happened to have Dirk go nuts in close games. If you talk about which is more valuable...it was Dirk. And you continue to ignore what Dirk did to the defense...which was make it better by 3.6 points when he was on the floor.
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Defense and offense always go together. If Lebron, Wade, Westbrook, Durant have big games they lose. Its never one or the other. Dirk was mediocre defender his whole life, it didn't magically get better at 32. Stats sometimes lie.

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What good is that defense without a guy giving you 28/8/3 on 61% TS and coming through in the clutch? You do realize that 16 of the Mavs 21 playoff games went into crunch time...right? We didn't blow anyone out consistently. Shit, the Lakers were ahead in 2 of the first 3 games with like 9 minutes left. [/quote]

The closer the games the more important defense is. Its basic knowledge in the playoffs. But Dirk was lights out.
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Context? How about you stop ignoring what Dirk did and what he did factually to the defense.[/quote]
Dirk wasn't stopping anybody who wasn't stopping themselves.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Hey I didn't mean that post for you. Sorry about that.

While the second best player wasn't very distinct they had a lot of things every champion or runner up would wish for:

1. The Mav's had the best defensive stand at guard ever - greatly reducing roles of Kobe/Westbrook and Wade.

2. The Mav's had the best defensive stand at SF ever - greatly reducing roles of Lebron and Durant.

3. They had great 3point shooting for most of the playoffs (Kidd and Terry

4. Terry was as clutch as any number 2 player in recent memory and scored 20ppg in their wins and was very efficient in the final three games. To me it was better than most number two's in the last 10 years.

5. Their main player played bad in one game, and played bad in three quarters in another win, yet the team pulled out wins.

6. Dallas played their game (primarily Kidd)

7. Kidd, primarily controlled tempo perfectly and didn't turn the ball over.

8. Teams did not penetrate on them due to Chandler

9. Teams did not run on them (primarily Kidd)

Dirk would be at the top but it was a very much a great team effort.

Both SA and OKC beat Miami if these qualities, minus Dirk, existed.[/QUOTE]


This is so Meh...

The production of the Mavs role players was at best average for a title winning team on both ends.

Shit...the 09 Lakers played better defense and had a 2nd option Gasol that destroys the value of Chandler and Terry. And had a guy like Ariza going nuts...etc.

The Celtics (KG stan moron) had a far more stacked team in 08 than the 11 Mavs...they just played much worse competition en route to that gift wrapped title for a loaded team playing in a shit conference.

I could do this for just about every year other than Duncan in 03.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]So what point is it exactly that you're trying to make. That Dirk isn't that good? Or, that Durant is better than Dirk ever was.

Don't dance around. Just a straight answer.

IMO, prime Dirk is clearly better than anything we have yet seen from Durant.[/QUOTE]
I don't think its outrageous or very wrong to think as you do. I like all around players and already said I like Durant. I think Durant has been a top tier scorer for three years and I don't believe Dirk was there. I think Durant's very clutch too. I think he can hit from the same spots on the floor and already is as accurate of shooter as Dirk. And I think he's more skilled because he can dribble. I also think he's quicker.

But I won't lose it because you think otherwise.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]T-Mac had more of a man's game than Durant though. Kobe DEFINITELY had more of a man's game than Durant.

Maybe you can say it doesn't matter, but to me it does matter that he is so frail and officiated with marshmallow padded kid-gloves.

IMO, its a fair criticism. I get sick of seeing him trying to handle the ball while fumbling around like a newborn giraffe and hearing the refs whistle to send him to the free throw line for dribbling the ball off of his own foot.[/QUOTE]
Last five games: 31.4 PPG and 7.0 FTA/game. The freebies to the line have slowly started to regress to the mean, yet he's still scoring at a high clip.

I mean your argument/belief might be valid if Durant hasn't proved in both the regular season and playoffs he can score at a high volume on good efficiency. The year they made the Finals, Durant averaged 29 PPG on 52/37/86 shooting and 63% TS...on 7.7 FTA/game.

i will just go with the context .. i laughed hard of what ive read on some of the pages... I would choose prime dirk ... it is scary though what prime durant can do ...

but if am building a team i would go with durant .

its just not fair to compare prime vs 80% prime of current player
specially when they say your so called prime is when you won the ring. rings are so valuable to some that the supporting casts gets to little credit ...

its funny that people say westbrook is a superstar when 2 years ago his finals performance was not even better than barea.. :facepalm

westbrook maybe showing he is back and maybe better now but lets not get outta hand and say its his team.. without westbrook that team is still playoff bound

without durant that team is lottery bound...

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]This is so Meh...

The production of the Mavs role players was at best average for a title winning team on both ends.

Shit...the 09 Lakers played better defense and had a 2nd option Gasol that destroys the value of Chandler and Terry. And had a guy like Ariza going nuts...etc.

The Celtics (KG stan moron) had a far more stacked team in 08 than the 11 Mavs...they just played much worse competition en route to that gift wrapped title for a loaded team playing in a shit conference.

I could do this for just about every year other than Duncan in 03.[/QUOTE]

:lol you just aren't bright enough to understand that it was a team doing things in unison. Gasol has never had a defensive stand near that of Chandler and will never win DPOY. Then you compared him to Terry??? Terry was the most proficient/productive scorer in the majority of the team's finals wins. Really now?

The Celtics were one of the best defensive teams ever, clown. And guess why? And defense is hard work, nothing giftwrapped. Giftwrapped is when you can't win a game the next year :D and all of a sudden the players that usually outscore Dirk start doing it again.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]:lol you just aren't bright enough to understand that it was a team doing things in unison. Gasol has never had a defensive stand near that of Chandler and will never win DPOY. Then you compared him to Terry??? Terry was the most proficient/productive scorer in the majority of the team's finals wins. Really now?

The Celtics were one of the best defensive teams ever, clown. And guess why? And defense is hard work, nothing giftwrapped. Giftwrapped is when you can't win a game the next year :D and all of a sudden the players that usually outscore Dirk start doing it again.[/QUOTE]

Wait...hold on...did you just claim that Terry was better than Gasol?

Celtics one of the best teams ever? Dude...they needed 7 to beat the Hawks and Cavs...rofl.

KG needed way more help than Dirk to win...and then only won once...while getting his shit kicked by Pau Gasol in 2010.

The Mavs role players in 11 worth worse than the average title winning team. Like...you have no idea what you are ****ing talking about.

The ****ing 2009 Lakers played better defense, quite considerably, than the 11 Mavs in the playoffs.

The defense of the 11 Mavs is getting absurdly over-rated. We had like a 106 defensive rating...LOL

The Bulls played great defense...not the Mavs. The mavs were like maybe the 10th best defense in the league? Somewhere around there...and didn't get any better in the playoffs...

Oh...and you do realize that Dirk made deep playoff runs in 03 and 06 without Chandler...and with shit centers...right?

But again...I'd never thought I'd see the day in which Chandler/Terry is too much help...I've now seen it all...until morons like you say something else



Oh...and stats lie? No...they actually don't. They are facts. You can make of them what you will...but it's just a fact that Dirk improved his teams defense in both the regular season and playoffs when he was on the floor. You call him a pathetic defender...the truth is that Dirk is a fine defender. He's just not great.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]Is Dirk having the combo of Chandler/Terry any better than what Kevin Love has with Pekovic/Rubio?

I'd STRONGLY argue that Pekovic/Rubio is better. Kevin Martin and Corey Brewer are about as good as over-the-hill Kidd and Peja. JJ Barea and Jos

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Wait...hold on...did you just claim that Terry was better than Gasol?
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If my star player is off, this isn't even a question.
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Celtics one of the best teams ever? Dude...they needed 7 to beat the Hawks and Cavs...rofl. [/quote]
Did you miss the word DEFENSIVE.
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KG needed way more help than Dirk to win...and then only won once...while getting his shit kicked by Pau Gasol in 2010.[/quote]
He wasn't 100% healthy. Hello? Anybody home? He wins two maybe three if healthy. You always act brand new. Why you talking about KG, tho.
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The Mavs role players in 11 worth worse than the average title winning team. Like...you have no idea what you are ****ing talking about.
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Sorry I just named nine main things that every contender would love to have. Keep up.
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The ****ing 2009 Lakers played better defense, quite considerably, than the 11 Mavs in the playoffs. [/quote]
They held four all time greats below their average. Stop lying. Keep up
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The defense of the 11 Mavs is getting absurdly over-rated. We had like a 106 defensive rating...LOL [/quote]
Had to have been Dirks man because it wasn't the better scoring guard or SF for sure. And it wasn't Tyson's man.
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The Bulls played great defense...not the Mavs. The mavs were like maybe the 10th best defense in the league? Somewhere around there...and didn't get any better in the playoffs... [/quote]
Yeap, the Bulls definitely played Lebron a lot better.
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But again...I'd never thought I'd see the day in which Chandler/Terry is too much help...I've now seen it all...until morons like you say something else [/quote]
Dmav's you so stupid it takes you 24 hours to watch 60 minutes.
Dmav's you so stupid you thought Taco Bell was a Mexican phone company.
Dmav's you so stupid you refused to go in a car pool because you thought you drown. :lol

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Oh...and stats lie? No...they actually don't. They are facts. You can make of them what you will...but it's just a fact that Dirk improved his teams defense in both the regular season and playoffs when he was on the floor. You call him a pathetic defender...the truth is that Dirk is a fine defender. He's just not great.[/QUOTE]
Average defenders guard the best and worse at their position. Below average defenders don't.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]If my star player is off, this isn't even a question.

Did you miss the word DEFENSIVE.

He wasn't 100% healthy. Hello? Anybody home? He wins two maybe three if healthy. You always act brand new. Why you talking about KG, tho.

Sorry I just named nine main things that every contender would love to have. Keep up.

They held four all time greats below their average. Stop lying. Keep up

Had to have been Dirks man because it wasn't the better scoring guard or SF for sure. And it wasn't Tyson's man.

Yeap, the Bulls definitely played Lebron a lot better.

Dmav's you so stupid it takes you 24 hours to watch 60 minutes.
Dmav's you so stupid you thought Taco Bell was a Mexican phone company.
Dmav's you so stupid you refused to go in a car pool because you thought you drown. :lol


Average defenders guard the best and worse at their position. Below average defenders don't.[/QUOTE]

Wait...now Terry is better than Gasol.

Just for fun.

18/2/3 60% TS...and poor defense vs 20/11/4 60% TS and solid defense

Terry was factually one of the worst 2nd options on a title team of this era. Especially on your criteria of valuing individual defense so much...Terry is an awful defensive player.

What? I thought defense was important? Now Terry is better than Gasol? How? Gasol is a better overall offensive player and is a far better rebounder and defender.

You are a ****ing moron.

And no...the Mavs had a worse defensive rating with Dirk off the floor. His man wasn't scoring. It was actually more likely it was Chandler's...as Rick had to pull Chandler off Aldridge in round 1 as LA was raping him.

It's a simple fact that the 09 Lakers played as good or better defense. They factually played better defense by most measures, but it's hard to compare defensive metrics between years.

I don't care if it was "defensive"...it's the same thing. KG played on a way more stacked team and played inferior competition. Does that mean his title isn't worth anything? Try this was on...without two first ball hall of famers...KG doesn't have a ring....LOL

You gave 9 points? What? Your points are retarded...they literally didn't even happen. The other SF wasn't scoring? KD averaged 28/10/4 against the Mavs...rofl. And Wade went off against us in the finals...

I want you to take a look at what the Mavs were;

Terry 18/2/3
Kidd 9/5/7
Marion 12/6/2
Chandler 8/9/0
Barea 9/2/3
Peja 7/2/0
Stevenson 5/1/1
Haywood 3/4/0

And again. They played good, but hardly great defense. Had about a 106 defensive rating in the playoffs...just not special overall. That is just meh at best historically for title winning teams. There was a reason they were 20 to 1 underdogs and it wasn't because of "Dirk" like you said...

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Wait...now Terry is better than Gasol.

Just for fun.

18/2/3 60% TS...and poor defense vs 20/11/4 60% TS and solid defense

What? I thought defense was important? Now Terry is better than Gasol? How? Gasol is a better overall offensive player and is a far better rebounder and defender. [/quote]
When you play on a defensive team where guys can hold down all time greats on their own and you need clutch shooting because your clutch shooter is off isn't a question as to who is better. I'd take Terry everytime.
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You are a ****ing moron.

And no...the Mavs had a worse defensive rating with Dirk off the floor. His man wasn't scoring. It was actually more likely it was Chandler's...as Rick had to pull Chandler off Aldridge in round 1 as LA was raping him.
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:lol You're pathetic. But at least you are persistently consistent pathetic.
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It's a simple fact that the 09 Lakers played as good or better defense. They factually played better defense by most measures, but it's hard to compare defensive metrics between years.
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Than who bozo? Well here's the deal, in the playoffs if you stop the superstars the rest will fall in line.
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I don't care if it was "defensive"...it's the same thing. KG played on a way more stacked team and played inferior competition. Does that mean his title isn't worth anything? Try this was on...without two first ball hall of famers...KG doesn't have a ring....LOL [/quote]
Whoopde dam Dooo.
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You gave 9 points? What? Your points are retarded...they literally didn't even happen. The other SF wasn't scoring? KD averaged 28/10/4 against the Mavs...rofl. [B]And Wade went off against us in the finals[/B]...[/QUOTE]
hahaha, no not in 2006... Wade couldn't take over and KD scored a lot when games were out of reach and almost devoid when the games got close. So what else didn't happen?