Teammate career rankings between Jordan and Lebron -- The Reality

[QUOTE]The reason this perspective seems bizaare is because you guys have a zero-sum, video game mentality when it comes to the advanced metrics. You take them as the gospel truth when in fact they are only estimations with various limiatations and weaknesses. The simple belief that shots equals production and that more shots equals more production is just an example of this zero-sum mentality and poor understanding. This a mistake many GM's have made in the past of giving more and more touches to a middling offensive talent who struggles in creating his own shot and team shooting efficiency falls off the cliff. This type of basketball post hoc analysis is a common mistake and why a lot of GM's fail with player development because they draft of the box score and they don't look at how the player is getting their production. In truth, shots are not production at all. It's the exact opposite -- production is getting shots. You guys are putting the cart before the horse. Before a player can be a shooter, they have to be a shot creator.

History has always shown that Pippen-type players forced to be first options are are efficiency black holes in the clutch and in the playoffs. This is why Phil was okay with sitting Pippen's ass on the bench in a playoff game in the fourth quarter. They always get exposed. Pippen was in the process of getting exposed in 1995 before Jordan unretired. Also why without Jordan in 94 and 95 Pippen's shot making as overall trend remained relatively flat to his entire career. His attempts didn't deviate all that much because Pippen continued to play the same role in Phil's triangle. On the one hand, you are giving Pippen too much credit and on the other you are not recognizing Pippen was self-aware and intelligent enough as player to not try to force his game. The result was that the Bulls were still a decent team thanks to experience and coaching, but not a threat to win anything overall. [B]When playoff basketball came around, Pippen's efficiency predictably plummeted. Because in the playoffs against good teams possessions are at a premium, Pippen was forced to create offense and ended up getting shut down by the Knicks. [/B]Likewise when Jordan came back those shots that Pippen could never seem to find suddenly came back because Jordan was a far superior at creating offense than Pippen.

In the same way, Ewing as a primary offensive threat was a superior shot creator. That's why you can't compare Pippen's role to Ewing's and why BPM/OBPM having a secondary offensive talent like Pippen ranked higher than scoring centers like Ewing and Hakeem must mean that OBPM and BPM is a flawed stat on some level. The best way to use these stats is to ideally compare players at the same position and the same role and in multiple scenarios. BPM tries normalize for this by creating coefficients for both player position and player role, but it obviously has some issues. If I had an example of the player position/role regression it would be easy to analyze and figure why there is such a huge discrepancy. My theory is that the revamped BPM 2.0 is more geared toward evaluating modern players who mostly play on perimeter anyway. Any stat that has MVP-level Moses Malone as the fourth best player on his roster has issues.. Of course, you guys keep ignoring these very basic critiques of BPM as methodology because you can't explain them away with group think because they are such obvious biases.[/QUOTE]

Great points. And extremely eloquently written.

Rockhead could learn a thing or two. :lol

To the bolded, Pippen produced at only a 103 ORTG and +2 splits versus the Knicks. They shut him down. That's why Phil wanted Toni to take the most important shot of the series. Pippen as a second banana was a great impact player... big time positive splits. As a 1st option? He was like a weaker Giannis if that makes sense. Still had the defense, but his offense was easily shut down. Even Ewing posted a 113 ORTG in that series. Way better than Pippen.


[QUOTE]Yea, Shaq is tricky.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=goozeman;14113440]
Wait! Ya'll really believe Pippen > Shaq? :oldlol: :roll:[/QUOTE]

That's rockhead for you lmao. The guy is completely delusional.

Can you do these stats compared to the rest of the league at the time they were playing?

Still waiting to hear why all these stats are "flawed" yet used in the OP. [U]Explicitly[/U]. Why PPG has Pettit/Barry/Wilkins > Jabbar, Kobe & Shaq as scorers but still critically acclaimed by the gospel. Enlighten us with your grand contradictory.

[QUOTE=Sportal;14115516]Can you do these stats compared to the rest of the league at the time they were playing?[/QUOTE]

Nope--that would totally destroy the agenda of the OP. :lol

[QUOTE=insidious301;14115531]Still waiting to hear why all these stats are "flawed" yet used in the OP. [U]Explicitly[/U]. Why PPG has Pettit/Barry/Wilkins > Jabbar, Kobe & Shaq as scorers but still critically acclaimed by the gospel. Enlighten us with your grand contradictory.[/QUOTE]

Good question. Did he ever answer how he ranks Ewing versus LeBron's teammates?

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[SIZE=3]If Ingram was "barely" an all-star in 2020, then what is 90' Pippen?[/SIZE]


[B]20' Ingram[/B]..'..... 18.8 PER.. 2.4 BPM.. 0.115 WS/48.. 2.2 VORP
[B]90' Pippen[/B].....'.. 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP

[B]05' L Hughes[/b].... 21.6 PER.. 4.3 BPM.. 0.157 WS/48.. 3.7 VORP
[B]90' Pippen[/B].....'.. 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP

[B]09' Mo Will[/b]...'.... 17.2 PER.. 2.3 BPM.. 0.165 WS/48.. 3.1 VORP
[B]90' Pippen[/B].....'.. 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP


[SIZE=3]And Pippen wasn't an all-star in 91'

Ultimately, Pippen has lower career BPM, PER, and WS/48 than Wade/AD/Kyrie, and 90' Pippen was lower than 20' Ingram, 05' Hughes, or 09' Mo[/SIZE]

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[SIZE=5]Thread Cliffs[/SIZE]


[SIZE=3][B]Lebron's sidekicks had better stats than Pippen:

Kyrie, Wade or AD have better scoring, efficiency, assists, PER, BPM, and WS/48[/B]

(edit: AD doesn't have better assists)

These guys destroy Pippen statistically and nearly match Lebron (shared load), while Pippen was nowhere near Jordan in any series and therefore carried.. Lebron also needed a 3rd scorer, good rim protection and athletic guard defenders, none of which Jordan ever had.[/SIZE]

[QUOTE=NBAGOAT;14110886]no shit the 6 stats you used correlate with each other. most of them are only measuring offense. per is definitely a metric focused on offense. ws is based on ortg and drtg, it's a waste of time to list ortg and ws.[/QUOTE]


OP fuming lol