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[QUOTE=warriorfan;14871501]During the 2004 Pistons playoff run they gave up more than 100 points only once. (And it because the game had to go into triple overtime)[/QUOTE]
Considering teams averaged like 93 ppg in 2004, it's not really surprising.
The '89 Pistons gave up more than 100 points two times in a league where teams were averaging 109 ppg.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14871527]Considering teams averaged like 93 ppg in 2004, it's not really surprising.
The '89 Pistons gave up more than 100 points two times in a league where teams were averaging 109 ppg.[/QUOTE]
Shows how different the defensive climates were in Jordan and Kobe’s career compared to now.
Just how we deflate Wilts numbers, their numbers need inflation.
[QUOTE=Norcaliblunt;14871503]
Curry shits all over Kobe as an actual player and career.[/QUOTE]
Does he, really?
I've done these comparisons before. Steph and KB got the same raw averages in their primes in the POs but Steph has the higher efficiency. The league is also more efficient in this era by about the same margin and they play at a higher pace (more possessions aka more opportunities to put up higher numbers), so how is Kobe overrated and any worse when we weigh all that in? Steph's a better shooter and I'll even give him a slight edge in playmaking as well, but KB is better at a lot of areas, so I don't see how Curry shits all over Kobe to any extent. You can talk about the RS numbers for Steph but with the Playoffs KB has the edge.
[QUOTE=tontoz;14871483]None of those guys are considered top 10 players, or even close. Not only did Pierce do it twice, he also had seasons of 59.9 and 59.5.
MJ had 4 straight seasons of 60% TS even though he didn't shoot many 3s. Kobe shot far more 3s which should help his efficiency relative to MJ.[/QUOTE]
That is a good point.
People forget that when debating who's the GOAT, you're talking about the greatest of ALL time. Not the greatest of THEIR time. Would Steph Curry be as great in the 60's if his shot wasn't worth 3 points? No he would not. He would have to be a totally different player.
If you can remove the three point line and reduce that person to a much worse player, then they can't possibly be the greatest of all time. Greatest shooter maybe, not greatest player. Being great at basketball can't just be all about threes.
No matter what era you put him in, Bean is doing work. With spacing and without spacing. With a three or without the three.
The same way I go about judging all players – By taking into account their raw statistics (in the context of their era), their advanced metrics, their accolades, the era they played, the help they had.
Based on the above, Kobe is ranked anywhere from 7-12. I without question have MJ, LBJ, Kareem and Duncan over him. I also have personally Magic, Russell and Shaq over him, with Bird and Wilt just behind, but those 5 can be debated.
Some key points to remember with Kobe are;
He never had a historically great playoff run. 2001 is amazing statistically, but it comes with the caveat that he was still his own teams 2nd best player. 2009 is probably his best argument, and in that playoff run he beat 2 All-NBA players (Dwight and Melo). Statistically it’s great, but not historic. He never won a finals unless a teammate of his played better than his opponents best player.
Kobe only has 1 season in his career where he finished higher than a 7 seed or won a playoff series without an All-NBA teammate (and it was 08, his MVP season). Kobe isn’t someone who elevated mediocre players and teams. For reference, Duncan didn’t have an All-NBA teammate between 2000-2007, he still won 3 titles and competed in most of those seasons.
His defensive selections late in his career are near universally recognized (at least by non-Kobe fans) as being erroneous. There is just zero way as late as 2011 you can argue his defence was still top 4 in the league for a guard. I’d argue even after 2004 it dropped drastically. From 06-10, he could play lockdown defence when he wanted to, which meant sporadic regular season games and the playoffs. With that said, he had great defensive wings (Ariza/MWP) to alleviate the defensive pressure on Kobe.
You can take away Kobes first 3 seasons and last 6 seasons and nothing from his career really changes. That’s almost a decade of his career where nothing of note happens bar All-Star/All-NBA/All-Defensive team selections.
He is quite clearly the worst teammate and leader of anyone in the top 10 (he’s there with Wilt and Hakeem in that respect(. This matters to me.
The clutch narrative is just that. Kobe is one of the most mediocre elimination game/Game 7 players of any top 15 player. His finals stats don’t jump off the page (weird, because I thought the East in LBJs era was weak)? He has 3 pretty pathetic finals performances (00/04/08), with 01/09 being very good, 02/10 being good.
^^ I like this analysis. A few things I disagree with (Hakeem, Bird) but the Kobe part seems objective. (It is of course subjective, but in a way that's not overboard.) However, something surprised me. As I read your paragraphs I had the feeling you have lot of bad things to say about Kobe, yet you have him in the 7-12 range. (I have him somewhere there, too.) It made me think as to what you would write about some other good players. :-)
[QUOTE=elementally morale;14872238]^^ I like this analysis. A few things I disagree with (Hakeem, Bird) but the Kobe part seems objective. (It is of course subjective, but in a way that's not overboard.) However, something surprised me. As I read your paragraphs I had the feeling you have lot of bad things to say about Kobe, yet you have him in the 7-12 range. (I have him somewhere there, too.) It made me think as to what you would write about some other good players. :-)[/QUOTE]
I despise Kobe and the way he was, I will admit it. In some ways it blurs my view of him, but I still try to be as objective as I can. I feel having him 8th attests to that.
Give me another player and I'll be glad to dissect them the same way.
Kobe never had a great playoff run?
In 2010 the Lakers beat:
- The KD / Westbrook OKC team (inexperienced but would see the finals two years later)
- The D-Will / Boozer Jazz
- The Nash / Amare Suns (not the best version of that team but still a damn good team)
- The Big 3 Celtics (one of the best teams of that era)
Not exactly a cake walk.
You tell me what that team accomplishes with just Gasol, Odom and Bynum.
[QUOTE=Baller234;14872260]
You tell me what that team accomplishes with just Gasol, Odom and Bynum.[/QUOTE]
With a healthy Bynum? Not bad actually. It's a small sample size, but the Lakers were 6-3 without Kobe from '08-'10
Kobe stans will point out that he used to have injuries that impeded him in some of his playoff performances before (like in the 2000 finals and 2010 finals). However, it still doesn't take away the fact that it's likely due to a lot of unnecessary and selfish ball-jacking that contributed to those, as well as his atrophies later on in his career. No matter how 'hardworking' he made himself look like when he did them. He probably tried to challenge himself numerous times by letting his opponents dominate or come back in the game with tons of missed shots he had, usually at the expense of his own team. Even the zenmaster became mad about his own shtick. Tho kobe himself was very lucky to have some useful teammates that could bail him out once some situations went out of control.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14872262]With a healthy Bynum? Not bad actually. It's a small sample size, but the Lakers were 6-3 without Kobe from '08-'10[/QUOTE]
He only missed games in 2010, and in that sample size they were still worse without him that year. That team with Phil at the helm and with a decent Kobe replacement would still have been solid tbh. If you just took Kobe off the scoring would be too hard to maintain, but if you gave them another wing who fit in the triangle they'd still contend for the Playoffs, as we saw from Pau in Memphis.
[QUOTE=Axe;14872265]Kobe stans will point out that he used to have injuries that impeded him in some of his playoff performances before (like in the 2000 finals and 2010 finals). However, it still doesn't take away the fact that it's likely due to a lot of unnecessary and selfish ball-jacking that contributed to those, as well as his atrophies later on in his career. No matter how 'hardworking' he made himself look like when he did them. He probably tried to challenge himself numerous times by letting his opponents dominate or come back in the game with tons of missed shots he had, usually at the expense of his own team. Even the zenmaster became mad about his own shtick. Tho kobe himself was very lucky to have some useful teammates that could bail him out once some situations went out of control.[/QUOTE]
So explain to me how Jalen Rose intentionally injuring KB was actually KB's fault? Or the finger injuries that were freak accidents, where he wasn't even shooting the ball?
I have him 5th behind MJ, LeBron, Kareem and Magic
[QUOTE=ImKobe;14872277]So explain to me how Jalen Rose intentionally injuring KB was actually KB's fault? Or the finger injuries that were freak accidents, where he wasn't even shooting the ball?[/QUOTE]
Ok, we will try to excuse him from those. But there are some elite players that went through their own injuries who were still able to put up good numbers on better ts or efficiency.