Micheal Jordan Denial

[QUOTE=Phenomenon]I remember John Salley claiming that Magic Johnson was the greatest player he's ever seen, and someone asked him "What about Jordan."

John Salley simply replied..."Magic!!!"
So is Salley stupid because he didn't pick your precious? Of course not, he was old enough to see other legends play the game...the rules were different back then, so looking at statistics as the sole analysis is completely misleading. Of course there are hundreds of memorable moments from Jordan's career, just like there are from those other legends...most of you just can't be bothered to actually do some research about them so you simply stick with the obvious choice, a player you grew up watching. I'm not really blaming you, hard to argue against his success and accolades...it's just not as one sided as some of you like to think.

I'd say there are about 3-4 other players in the same tier as Michael Jordan, but to think no one should be compared to him is bias at its best.

Elders in my life, I'd say about two of them consider Jordan to be the greatest...everyone else leans toward Bird or Magic or Kareem or Hakeem Olajuwon. So I mean everyone has an opinion, I just think if you ask an older generation who have seen guys like Baylor, West, Wilt and Russell play...their opinions will be somewhat different.[/QUOTE]

for 1 thing Salley hates Jordan...he said Kobe lol...was better than MJ and also Magic..Salley is a scrub who has no opinion of any good players...even Magic thinks Mj is better than Kobe and himself

[QUOTE=kgisbigticket]Here is a post from a poster named Jordansbulls on another site and he is very knowledgeable. I am no Jordan fan, but this guy does make great points.

[url]http://www.answers.com/topic/nba-records[/url]

The Playoffs is where you make your name and where greatness is defined. But MJ was more consistent and holds records as well such as:

Highest PPG Average: 30.12
Most seasons leading league in Points: 11
Most scoring titles: 10
Highest PER Efficiency: 27.91

Also, MJ is no doubt the greatest playoff performer and IMO he was the greatest Road Player Ever. Most of his greatest feats happened on the road.

As far as the playoffs go, here are a few things that stuck out in my mind:

[B][U]Playoffs[/U][/B]
Most Points Per Game (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40 Point Games
38 by Michael Jordan

Most 30 Point Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)

These players all lost these series with Homecourt advantage which means they were the favorite. If someone was injured like a main star then that factors in, but if not that doesn't factor in the discussion.





MJ never lost a series with homecourt advantage/better seed/better record. What does that mean, well he was the only superstar to never lose a series in which his team was considered the favorite and better team. All the other legends lost series.

Also consider the following:

Is 18% a good percentage?

In what you might ask... 18% winning percentage...

Pretty awful right?

Well in 60 years of NBA Basketball only 11 league leading scorers have won a championship... That's 18.333333%...

Their names are: Shaquille O'Neal, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, George Mikan and some guy named Joe Fulks...

Most of these players were dominant Centers, who did more than just score.

That means that non center players who led the league in scoring have won in an amazing 10% of the time.. and only one player did it... Michael Jordan. In one era. That phenomenon of nature who won six...

10% winning historically!!! 10 PERCENT!!!

I will argue that the odds are against a high scoring guard from winning it all.

Here are the playoff top games.

[url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2002/playoffs/top_individual_points/[/url]

[B]Top Playoff Single-Game Scoring Performances [/B]
Player Team Opponent Total Date
[B]Michael Jordan[/B] Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986
Elgin Baylor L.A. Lakers at Boston 61 April 14, 1962
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 56 March 22, 1962
[B]Michael Jordan[/B] Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992
Charles Barkley Phoenix at Golden State 56 May 4, 1994
[B]Michael Jordan[/B] Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988
[B]Michael Jordan[/B] Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993
[B]Michael Jordan[/B] Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997
John Havlicek Boston Atlanta 54 April 1, 1973
[B]Michael Jordan[/B] Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 54 May 9, 2001
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 53 March 14, 1960
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Boston 53 April 23, 1969
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Baltimore 52 April 5, 1965
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 52 May 16, 2001
Sam Jones Boston at New York 51 March 28, 1967
Eric Floyd Golden State L.A. Lakers 51 May 10, 1987
Bob Cousy Boston Syracuse 50* March 21, 1953
Bob Petit St. Louis Boston 50 April 12, 1958
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia at Boston 50 March 22, 1950
Wilt Chamberlain San Francisco St. Louis 50 April 10, 1964
Billy Cunningham Philadelphia Milwaukee 50 April 1, 1970
Bob McAdoo Buffalo Washington 50 April 18, 1975
Dominique Wilkins Atlanta Detroit 50 April 19, 1986
[B]Michael Jordan [/B]Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988
[B]Michael Jordan[/B] Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989
Karl Malone Utah Seattle 50 April 22, 2000
Vince Carter Toronto Philadelphia 50 May 11, 2001
*4 overtimes
^overtime

This is courtesy of NBA on NBC here:

NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR
1946-47 - 37 Joe Fulks, PHW vs CHI at PHW 16Apr47
1947-48 - 34 Connie Simmons, BLT vs NYK at BLT 27Mar48
1948-49 - 42 George Mikan, MPL vs WSC 4Apr49 @ MPL
1949-50 - 40 George Mikan, MPL vs SYR at MPL 23Apr50
1950-51 - 41 George Mikan, MPL vs IDS at MPL 21Mar51
1951-52 - 47 George Mikan, MPL at ROC 29Mar52
1952-53 - 50 Bob Cousy, BOS vs SYR at BOS 21Mar53
1953-54 - 36 Dolph Schayes, SYR at NYK 21Mar54
1954-55 - 32 Bill Sharman, BOS at SYR 24Mar55
1955-56 - 43 Neil Johnson, PHW at SYR 25Mar56
1956-57 - 42 Bob Leonard, MPL vs STL at MPL 25Mar57
1957-58 - 50 Bob Pettit, STL vs BOS at STL 12Apr58
1958-59 - 40 Cliff Hagan, STL vs MPL at STL 21Mar59
1959-60 - 53 Wilt Chamberlain, PHW vs SYR at PHW 14Mar60
1960-61 - 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at DET 18Mar61
............... 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at STL 27Mar61
1961-62 - 61 Elgin Baylor, LAL at BOS 14Apr62
1962-63 - 47 Sam Jones, BOS vs CIN at BOS 10Apr63
1963-64 - 50 Wilt Chamberlain, SFW vs STL at SFW 10Apr64
1964-65 - 52 Jerry West, LAL vs BAL at LAL 3Apr65
1965-66 - 46 Wilt Chamberlain, PHI vs BOS at PHI 12Apr66
1966-67 - 55 Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI at SFW 18Apr67
1967-68 - 46 Zelmo Beaty, STL vs SFW 23Mar68 @ STL
1968-69 - 53 Jerry West, LAL vs BOS at LAL 23Apr69
1969-70 - 50 Billy Cunningham, PHI vs MIL at PHI 1Apr70
1970-71 - 39 Gail Goodrich, LAL at CHI 28Mar71
1971-72 - 43 John Havlicek BOS at ATL 31Mar72
1972-73 - 54 John Havlicek, BOS vs ATL at BOS 1Apr73
1973-74 - 44 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs BOS 6Apr74 at BUF
............... 44 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, MIL at CHI 18Apr74
1974-75 - 50 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs WAS at BUF 18Apr75
1975-76 - 45 Fred Brown, SEA vs PHO at SEA 15Apr76
1976-77 - 45 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, LAL vs GSW at LAL 29Apr77
1977-78 - 46 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 18Apr78
1978-79 - 42 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 11May79
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at WAS 18May79
1979-80 - 44 George Gervin, SAN vs HOU at SAN 4Apr80
1980-81 - 42 Calvin Murphy, HOU at SAN 17Apr81
............... 42 Moses Malone, HOU vs KCK at HOU 26Apr81
1981-82 - 39 George Gervin, SAN vs LAL at SAN 14May82
............... 39 Andrew Toney, PHI vs BOS at PHI 16May82
1982-83 - 42 Alex English, DEN vs PHO at PHO 24Apr83
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at DEN 26Apr83
1983-84 - 46 Bernard King, NYK at DET 19Apr84
............... 46 Bernard King, NYK vs DET at NYK 22Apr84
1984-85 - 43 Rolando Blackman, DAL vs POR at DAL 18Apr85
............... 43 Larry Bird, BOS vs DET at BOS 8May85
[B]1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS 20Apr86[/B]
1986-87 - 51 Sleepy Floyd, GSW vs LAL at GSW 10May87
[B]1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 1May88
1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 5May89
1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 11May90
1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 10May91
1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA 29Apr92
1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI 16Jun93[/B]
1993-94 - 56 Charles Barkley, PHO at GSW 4May94
[B]1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA 28Apr95
1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK 11May96
1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI 27Apr97
1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA 14Jun98[/B]
1998-99 - 37 Tim Duncan, SAN at LAL 22May99
............... 37 Scottie Pippen, HOU vs LAL at HOU 13May99
............... 37 Shaquille O'Neal, LAL vs HOU at HOU 15May99
............... 37 Allen Iverson, PHI vs ORL at PHI 15May99
1999-00 - 50 Karl Malone, UTA vs SEA at UTA 22Apr00
-----
ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA PLAYOFFS
Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
[B]Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2
Michael Jordan, CHI vs MIA, 1992..... 45.0[/B]

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES/NBA FINALS
[B]Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO, 1993..... 41.0[/B]
Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI, 1965..... 40.8
Elgin Baylor, LAL vs BOS, 1962..... 40.6


Also MJ has 6 playoffs series where he averaged at least 40 ppg.

Looks like MJ did quite well don't you think?


JordansBulls wrote a lot more, but I thought that was all interesting.[/QUOTE]

woah, that was an awesome read!

[QUOTE]for 1 thing Salley hates Jordan...he said Kobe lol...was better than MJ and also Magic..Salley is a scrub who has no opinion of any good players...even Magic thinks Mj is better than Kobe and himself[/QUOTE]

Pat Riley and Phil Jackson were also scrubs. Guys like Chick Hearn and Harvey Pollack never played in a single NBA game and never could. What's your point? Knowledge and intelligence have nothing to do with your basketball value as a player.
Second, since you put so much value on legends' opinions, how about the opinion of the legend you consider the greatest?

[url]http://www.cdymca.org/news/fullstory.asp?id=99[/url]

[QUOTE]"Bill Russell is the game's greatest living legend...no one has influenced the game of basketball more than Bill." [/QUOTE]

I've been an avid NBA fan since 1992 and watch over 100 games a year easy (excluding playoffs) and try to look at every team. I can't speak of before that era because I only saw Magic, Isaiah, Dominique and other stars from the 80's play a few games and most of them were on classic games.

I can say for sure from 1992 on that Michael Jordan is the best player we have seen. As far as the physical tools go I think Kobe has just as many. It's the mental aspect that is not even close in comparison from anybody in this present era. I'm not trying to hold on to the past. I respect the players of today. Lebron and CP3 I consider top 5 overall players. I still consider Kobe to be easily the best right now though.
It just is what it is. Sometimes I watch games with people and they say, "Man Kobe's clutch", or "He sticks a dagger in people's heart's". I say to myself, do you remember Jordan? He was at a whole different level mentally.
First he came to a Chicago Bulls team that wasn't that great and progressively made them better over a half a decade. Every rival he had, who were also consider legends, he came back to own. Dominique, Isaiah, Barkley, Magic, Malone. Most of them were still in their primes when he destroyed them. Most of these legends also consider Jordan as the best of all time.

To come back after his first retirement and refine his game to once again easily become the best player in the league and once again 3 peat is an accomplishment I am not sure even Kobe could do. No proof of this of course before somebody else actually does it but I would bet against it. To leave the game like that for a year and a half and barely touch a basketball for over a year before attempting to train for the comeback is out of this world. Plus he lost some of his athleticism and had to develop the deadliest fadeaway mid range jumper we've seen to this day. Plus shore up his D to become one of the best one on one defenders going.
Then to come back and play for the Wizards is his late 30's and still be arguably the best player on the court is just as amazing. People had expectations of "air Jordan" so sometimes even I questioned the return but if we didn't know the Jordan of the past most would say he was a damn good player at age 40.
We haven't seen "Jordan" since Jordan. That's why everybody is still comparing today's future stars to "The next Jordan"

How old is the thread starter? Can't be any older than high school age I bet.

magic > mj, imo.

[QUOTE=brandonislegend]magic > mj, imo.[/QUOTE]

omg, I can't believe you just said that.
don't you know MJ is up on a pedestal?
don't you know MJ cured the world of all ills... when he wasn't busy saving damsels in distress?

[quote=brandonislegend]magic > mj, imo.[/quote]

at least this is a respectable opinion, unlike what most other "Lakers fans" think about their current SG.

I'd give that Michael was MAYBE a slightly better individual than Magic, but I start my team with Magic over anybody and he's my pick for the GOAT

[QUOTE=brandonislegend]magic > mj, imo.[/QUOTE]

Magic would be the first to disagree. So would every other Laker who played in that era.

Magic was a great player on offense but on defense....not so much.

Only people who didn't actually see Jordan in his prime would say something like that. There is nobody in todays game who is on Jordans level.

Kobe is basically a poor man's Jordan. A poor man's Jordan is still a great player though.

[QUOTE=Y2Gezee]I'd give that Michael was MAYBE a slightly better individual than Magic, but I start my team with Magic over anybody and he's my pick for the GOAT[/QUOTE]

Jordan was more than a little bit better than Magic individually. Magic's advantage was how he could more easily integrate with the team, so if you're going to take him for that fact, that's fine. But it's incorrect to suggest that Jordan was merely "slightly" better than Magic individually -- he was quite a bit better, especially when one considers both sides of the ball (but even if we don't).

[quote=mjbulls23]at least this is a respectable opinion, unlike what most other "Lakers fans" think about their current SG.[/quote]

Seriously. Arguing Magic > Jordan is fine, even if it's a minority opinion (and in my opinion incorrect) because he had the career and game to stack up to Jordan.

Part of why people can argue this is because Magic played an entirely different position than Jordan, so people can always make an "apples and oranges" comparison and say that a great PG (and Magic was the best) is more valuable/better than a great SG, which might be true I suppose. However, with Kobe, who plays the same position and has the same type of game as Jordan (versatile two-way alpha male SG), this argument can never (and will never be able to be) made. It must always be an apples to apples comparison between those two, and Kobe will always come up short in that comparison because it cannot be argued that he does anything at all aside from 3-point shooting as well as Jordan did it.

[QUOTE=mjbulls23]at least this is a respectable opinion, unlike what most other "Lakers fans" think about their current SG.[/QUOTE]funny post coming from somebody who whines and cries everrytime somebody brings up kobe in a thread?...

[quote=gts]funny post coming from somebody who whines and cries everrytime somebody brings up kobe in a thread?...[/quote]

you might want to read through KINGD's posts in this thread first before commenting.

[QUOTE=mjbulls23]you might want to read through KINGD's posts in this thread first before commenting.[/QUOTE]those were well before the thread got bumped today bro...

c'mon i thought the idea was to clean up the trollishness of the board not feed it

[quote=gts]those were well before the thread got bumped today bro...

c'mon i thought the idea was to clean up the trollishness of the board not feed it[/quote]

well I get the idea but I'm convinced there's no way to stop the trolls on this board. That's why as of recently I'm staying out of any Kobe/Lakers related thread because as far as I'm concerned the trolls outwiegh the good posters like yourself, hotsizzle, Laker4Lyfe, etc...

[QUOTE=mjbulls23]well I get the idea but I'm convinced there's no way to stop the trolls on this board. That's why as of recently I'm staying out of any Kobe/Lakers related thread because as far as I'm concerned the trolls outwiegh the good posters like yourself, hotsizzle, Laker4Lyfe, etc...[/QUOTE]

I like the trolls. they keep me entertained. I miss Knoe Itawl. and Make It Rain. BULLS is completely absurd, but I find it amusing. guys like that.