List of players over 7 foot, 230 pounds in Wilt's time

[QUOTE=Helix]Really? What exactly does it speak for? Comparing his 71-72 season to 76-77, 34.8 ppg - 26.2 ppg, 16.6 rpg - 13.3 rpg, and 4.6 apg - 3.9 apg. Shooting percentages were pretty much the same. Looks to me like he was more dominant in 71-72 than in 76-77.

Kareem truly was a phenomenal player, but he was NEVER the dominating force that Wilt was. Not even close. Whether it was lack of motivation, or lack of stamina, or a combination of both, I don't know.[/QUOTE]

:cheers:

I find it fascinating, but those that actually grew up in the Chamberlain-era, on this forum, at least, almost to a man, rank Wilt at, or near the very top all-time. Helix, JMT, La Fresco Baldi, and probably CavaliersFTW, all seem to at least consider Wilt as the most all-around dominant player to have ever played the game. I can't speak for the ages of Psileas, PHILA, and Pointguard, but even if they didin't actually grow up in the 60's, they have done enough research to back up their claims, as well.

Also interesting is the fact, that, while those that also were fortunate enough to have seen Kareem play, almost to a man here, seem to state the same thing...he was a truly great player who didn't play up to his potential. And the reality was, had Magic not arrived in 1980, Kareem woud probably have been considered the greatest "stats-padding" "choker" of all-time. Once again, I too agree that Kareem COULD have been perhaps the GOAT, but he never reached the dominance of a Chamberlain.

As powerful as Shaq was, he didn't have the KNOWN range of a younger Chamberlain. Nor was he as fast, or as athletic, and perhaps, not even as strong (at least at their absolute peaks.)

We have enough footage of Chamberlain to KNOW that he was ROUTINELY hitting 10-15+ shots in the first half of his NBA career. We also now have enough footage to properly declare him as the highest leaping "great" of all-time. Recently Sports Science conducted a session with Dwight Howard, in which he edged Shaq's "supposed" record leap-touch of 12' 5", with a 12' 6" mark. But thanks to recently posted footage on YouTube, we now KNOW that Wilt not only bettered that mark, but he did so in the middle of game, with no time to react, and with a straight up leap, in which he is using his off-hand to extend with. Clearly, those that claimed that Wilt could touch the top of the backboard were right.

Then, in the comparisons with Kareem, Wilt had nearly the same range, was nearly as tall, had a longer wingspan, was a much better leaper, was way stronger, and overall, was even more skilled in ALL aspects of the game (shooting, passing, rebounding, shot-blocking, and defense.)

BTW, Psileas posted the recorded games in Wilt's last two seasons in the NBA, and the overall estimates were that a 35 and 36 year old Chamberlain was blocking 7-8 shots per game in '72, and 5-6 in '73. How about a PRIME Kareem in the very next season, 73-74, when the NBA first began officially recording them,...3.5 bpg. His high campaign was 4.1 bpg. Here again, an OLD Wilt, at over 300 lbs, and on a surgically repaired knee, was blocking between 6-8 shots per game. Hell, in his H2H's with just Kareem, he had MANY games of 4-5 blocks against Kareem (with a high of 6.) Harvey Pollack had Chamberlain with entire SEASONS of 10+ bpg, and now, given the fact that an OLD Wilt could average 7 bpg, in his LAST seasons...well, 10+ simply HAS to be correct. (BTW, Elmore Smith is credited with the "official" block record in a game, with 17, BUT, Chamberlain had a KNOWN nationally televised game, in which he RECORDED 23 blocks.)

Without question, Chamberlain was the game's greatest athlete. He was a champion HIGH-JUMPER (part-time) at KU. In addition, he participated in the LONG JUMP, the TRIPLE JUMP, was a member of KU's 4x100 yd relay team, and even participated in the shot put.

Virtually everyone who played in the Wilt era would acknowledge that he was the strongest man at the time, and many would claim that he was the strongest ever. The internet is plastered with accounts of 500+ bench presses, too. But even beyond that, there are a TON of first hand accounts of incredible physical feats. How come ONLY Wilt?

He was not only a sprinter at KU, he ran marathons in High School, and was even running marathons in his early 60's.

Probably the game's greatest athlete, and probably the most dominant player of all-time.

[QUOTE=Helix]Really? What exactly does it speak for? Comparing his 71-72 season to 76-77, 34.8 ppg - 26.2 ppg, 16.6 rpg - 13.3 rpg, and 4.6 apg - 3.9 apg. Shooting percentages were pretty much the same. Looks to me like he was more dominant in 71-72 than in 76-77.

Kareem truly was a phenomenal player, but he was NEVER the dominating force that Wilt was. Not even close. Whether it was lack of motivation, or lack of stamina, or a combination of both, I don't know.[/QUOTE]
Kareem had arguably his best playoff run in 1977. That run was probably the goat non-winning performance. Why did you leave the plyaoffs #s?

28.7 - 34.6
18.2 - 17.7
5.1 - 4.1
.437 - .607

Talking about just based on regular season numbers saying like;
2000 Duncan was almost as dominant as 2003 Duncan (which was not)
1994 Shaq was almost as dominant as 2000 Shaq (which was not, again)
1980 Moses was more dominant player than 1983 Moses (which was not, again)
1987 or 1988 Jordan was more dominant player than 1990 Jordan (which is absouletly wrong)

[QUOTE=Odinn]Kareem had arguably his best playoff run in 1977. That run was probably the goat non-winning performance. Why did you leave the plyaoffs #s?

28.7 - 34.6
18.2 - 17.7
5.1 - 4.1
.437 - .607

Talking about just based on regular season numbers saying like;
2000 Duncan was almost as dominant as 2003 Duncan (which was not)
1994 Shaq was almost as dominant as 2000 Shaq (which was not, again)
1980 Moses was more dominant player than 1983 Moses (which was not, again)
1987 or 1988 Jordan was more dominant player than 1990 Jordan (which is absouletly wrong)[/QUOTE]

*Note the underlying point of why Kareem is being discussed:

I mention how dominating and athletic he was in the early 70's (MVP's, league leading titles, rings, finals MVP's the list literally goes on and on). There's plenty of footage out there to back the superb athleticism up. He was a force from the get-go in his career - he amassed as many accolades in his first 5 years as anyone could ever dream of getting.

PTBfan suggests that he [I]he wasn't[/I] prime nor even dominant at that time and further, he suggests that [I]it wasn't even close[/I]. :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

So you can bring up his 1977 playoff stats etc - but the issue at hand was how good he was in the early 70's not just the late 70's

Do you honestly also believe Milwaukee Kareem wasn't dominant/prime within his first 5 seasons??? If so, based on what???

[QUOTE=jlauber]Not even close???

You are absolutely out of your mind. In fact, how about this? In Kareem's 71-72 season, he played 44.2 mpg, averaged 34.8 ppg, 16.6 rpg, shot .574, and averaged 4.6 apg. And he accomplished all of that on a team that romped to a 63-19 record, and had a whopping +11.1 ppg differential.

Then, playing with an average supporting cast, at best, in his 75-76 Laker season, he played 41.2 mpg, averaged 27.7 ppg, which was among his worst seasons in the 70's, and shot .529 from the floor, which was his third WORST season of that decade. Granted, he led the NBA in rebounding, at 16.9 rpg, but before anyone gets too excited about that, it was his ONLY rebounding title, and he barely edged 6-9 Dave Cowens, who was at 16.0 rpg. The other leaders were 6-7 Wes Unseld, 6-7 Paul Silas, and 6-10 Sam Lacey. Gone were the dominant rebounders like Wilt and Thurmond. And of course, the biggest question simply has to be...in a season in which his team needed him to be a dominant scorer, he basically couldn't do it. And it wasn't like no one was scoring, either. McAdoo ran away with the scoing title, at 31.1 ppg, and the season before, he romped over Kareem, with a 34.5 ppg average (in a league that only averaged 102.6 ppg.)[/QUOTE]

I don't find his early seasons to be the greatest. The truth was he wasn't at his finest. He was the same player in that period as he was in Milwaukee( i refer on 75-82, maybe a year plus/minus,)expect a lot better in nearly everything.

By then, he was a close to unstoppable offensive player who could shot the sky hook with either hand and from bigger distance as well. He was better defensively (maybe not as good overall..), better on the glass (posted huge #'s in the playoffs), more complete and made a bigger impact in the game.

He elevated in the playoffs to a higher standard, which is even better. But as always one of Kareem's team mates has an injury that keeps him from going deeper in the post season. The man had just as bad luck as Wilt in this regard.

It's more than the numbers and the RS. Jabbar dominated in the playoffs as always and had great series. He was robbed of a Finals MVP in '80 because of Magic's performance in Game 6.



[QUOTE]And I will stand by my assertion that Kareem's[B] all-around greatest season came in his SECOND season[/B]. He easily led the league in scoring at 31.7 ppg, and in only 40.1 mpg, while grabbing 16.0 rpg, and shooting .577 (which was his greatest differential against the league-average... .128 points...of his entire career.) He won the MVP, and then went on to win the FMVP, and on a team that went 66-16. BTW, the Bucks DEFENSE, in the Kareem's years, were simply among the greatest defensive team's EVER. They were holding opponents to .420, .422, and .424 seasons. Kareem was a MAJOR factor in that.[/QUOTE]

Arguable but I'd put the 76-77 season as his personal finest. His stats went up really high and he increased in every regard. 35/18/5 on 60% in the post season is just crazy. He torched the Warriors and Blazers (with healthy Bill Walton) with amazing stat lines.

He even added to his offensive game that season and made his arsenal of moves as well. However, as always, some of Kareem's team mates (in this case healthy Kermit Washington, LA's only other notable rebounder) was out of the post season and LA got killed on the glass that season. One man can do so much, but he's no team.

He didn't win a title that year unfortunately. His 77 is IMO his real peak, where he was truly at his finest, but he didn't win a title though. It's the post season domination which is why i chose this season to be as his greatest, after all, the playoffs are more important than the regular season. I didn't go with 72 as Kareem's top season because he and his Bucks were favored to win the series over Wilt, but arguably Chamberlain did enough to impact the game and lead his team in a 4-2 win in the playoffs over him.

If you pick a player A let's say.. greatest season, by mostly his performance in the regular season, then it's fine. But i don't chose them like that which is why we have different opinions on this one. All good though.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW][B]PTBfan suggests that he [I][I]he wasn't[/I] prime nor even dominant at that time a[/I]nd further, he suggests that [I]it wasn't even close[/I]. :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm[/B][/QUOTE]

False. I never said that Kareem wasn't in his prime in 72 nor or even that he wasn't dominant. You're making things up now. I clearly overreacted in the previous thread because Jlauber always brings Kareem's 72 season as his personal finest, because in a way he can worship Wilt who arguably outplayed Kareem in that series. I was tired of that.

That's it mate. Please don't make up things next time with me in them. Thanks.

[QUOTE=Odinn]Kareem had arguably his best playoff run in 1977. That run was probably the goat non-winning performance. Why did you leave the plyaoffs #s?

28.7 - 34.6
18.2 - 17.7
5.1 - 4.1
.437 - .607[/QUOTE]


I DID look at the playoffs Odinn, and I really don't see much of a difference. Considering who he went up against in 72, Chamberlain and Thurmond, two of the three best defensive centers in NBA history, and who he went up against in 77, the numbers become a bit more meaningful. Against Walton in 77 he averaged 30.3 ppg, pretty close to the 28.7 ppg average he had against Thurmond and Chamberlain combined. His ppg average got a nice boost against the Warriors facing Clifford Ray and rookie Robert Parish. So sorry to say I'm just not that impressed comparing his 77 playoff numbers to his 72 playoff numbers.

As for Kareem's performance in 77 being the goat non-winning performance, just off the top of my head I can think of three that impress me more. Wilt in 1962.....impressive numbers and he carried his team to within an eyelash of upsetting the Celtic dynasty.....a two point loss in game 7. Wilt in 1965.....same as in 62 except this time a one point loss in game 7. And what about Jerry West in 1969? He WAS, after all, named finals MVP.

Regardless though, as pointed out by CavaliersFTW, Kareem was a dominate force immediately upon his arrival in the NBA. I can attest to that.....I was there, I saw it.

bump :oldlol:

[QUOTE=PTB Fan]False. I never said that Kareem wasn't in his prime in 72 nor or even that he wasn't dominant. You're making things up now. I clearly overreacted in the previous thread because Jlauber always brings Kareem's 72 season as his personal finest, because in a way he can worship Wilt who arguably outplayed Kareem in that series. I was tired of that.

That's it mate. Please don't make up things next time with me in them. Thanks.[/QUOTE]

I prob said that heat of the moment. I'll refrain next time :cheers:

How many seasons did Wilt get beat out in rebounding titles by a 6-8 230 lb player like Rodman, or a 6-7 245 lb. player like Ben Wallace?

7-1 350 lb. Shaq played in the NBA for 19 seasons, and won exactly... ZERO rebound titles.

7-2+ Kareem played in 20 seasons, four in the Wilt-era, and he won exactly ONE rpg title (and it didn't come in the Chamberlain-era, either.)

The Laker teams of mid to late '70's had great ball movement and the team stayed alert and active. At first Kareem thrived in it and as the decade was ending he gradually lost focus. Magic got him back on track, tho. Kareem in '72 is fluid, bouncy and trying to be an all around center like Wilt. In '76 Kareem was not the best scoring center in the game, but was far more talented than anybody in the league. But there is no separation from the league in any way. It was the last year Kareem put in the effort to be an all around center. Kareem didn't like fighting for rebounds and blocking shots were a matter of moods.

Kareem had the same talent difference from the rest of the league as Wilt did. Yet Kareem's only year of separation from the league is in '72 when he wasn't pacing himself. Wilt rarely had a year where he didn't have separation in some way. If they recorded blocks... he would have had separation in that measure as well. Wilt played the game above the rim and with great energy and he was the first to have a career that way.

6'10" does not qualify as 7' :facepalm
Since when are shoes 2" :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Pointguard]The Laker teams of mid to late '70's had great ball movement and the team stayed alert and active. At first Kareem thrived in it and as the decade was ending he gradually lost focus. Magic got him back on track, tho. Kareem in '72 is fluid, bouncy and trying to be an all around center like Wilt. In '76 Kareem was not the best scoring center in the game, but was far more talented than anybody in the league. But there is no separation from the league in any way. It was the last year Kareem put in the effort to be an all around center. Kareem didn't like fighting for rebounds and blocking shots were a matter of moods.

Kareem had the same talent difference from the rest of the league as Wilt did. Yet Kareem's only year of separation from the league is in '72 when he wasn't pacing himself. Wilt rarely had a year where he didn't have separation in some way. If they recorded blocks... he would have had separation in that measure as well. Wilt played the game above the rim and with great energy and he was the first to have a career that way.[/QUOTE]

I agree 100%. And as for Kareem's '77 post-season, it came in 11 games, and seven of them were against a Warrior team that was barely a .500 team. And those that actually watched the '77 WCF's, would tell you that Kareem really only outplayed Walton in one game. In the rest of that series, it was always Walton making the big plays, the clutch plays, or playing brilliantly in the 4th quarters.

That was not a knock on Kareem, so much as it was reality. He was certainly capable of dominating games, and when he was motivated, he did. But, there is no way that he was at his peak in '77. If anything, while his range and bulk increased, his athleticism declined, and even moreso, his overall desire.

And it fascinates me that Wilt gets ripped for a supposed "decline" in the post-season (and I have posted the ACTUAL numbers which support Wilt was one of the greatest "Big Game" players of all-time), while Kareem's SEVERAL post-season "flop-jobs" are largely ignored.

And go ahead and look up Kareem in his "must-win" and "clinching games." Again, SEVERAL in which he was either outplayed by his opposing center, even decisively, or in which he "choked."

[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]6'10" does not qualify as 7' :facepalm
Since when are shoes 2" :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Are you still posting here...despite being SHREDDED in EVERY discussion involving Wilt?

[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]6'10" does not qualify as 7' :facepalm
Since when are shoes 2" :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://marinafini.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/il_fullxfull-149200025.jpg[/IMG]