prime dirk vs current durant?

[QUOTE=Pointguard]When you play on a defensive team where guys can hold down all time greats on their own and you need clutch shooting because your clutch shooter is off isn't a question as to who is better. I'd take Terry everytime.

:lol You're pathetic. But at least you are persistently consistent pathetic.

Than who bozo? Well here's the deal, in the playoffs if you stop the superstars the rest will fall in line.

Whoopde dam Dooo.

hahaha, no not in 2006... Wade couldn't take over and KD scored a lot when games were out of reach and almost devoid when the games got close. So what else didn't happen?[/QUOTE]

Stop dancing around. It's all you do...pathetic.

There is no argument for Terry being better than Gasol...none

The rest is more BS...take a look at the production above combined with good but not great defense...

seriously...let's look at the defenses that have won the title lately

Heat in 13 and 12 were better...
Lakers in 10 were worse
Lakers in 09 were better...
Celtics in 08 were better
Spurs in 07 were better
Heat in 06 were better
Spurs in 05 were better
Pistons in 04 were better
Spurs in 03 were better
Lakers in 02 were better
Lakers in 01 were better

Seriously...all of those teams had significantly better defensive metrics in the playoffs

Take the 06 Heat for example...playing in a year with joke rules defensively really. Held opponents in the playoffs to around 46% efg and had a 102 defensive rating. Mavs held teams to around 49% efg and had a 106 defensive rating. LOL...

The 09 Lakers held teams to around 47%efg and had around a 103 defensive rating.

We just weren't that good defensively. But we were special offensively with Dirk on the floor. I can't quite remember, but I think while Dirk was on the floor...the Mavs had the highest rated offense by any team to win the title of the era.

So LOL...we had arguably the best offense...and outside of the 10 Lakers...probably the worst defense...certainly a defense no better than any of the others.

Again...don't you hate facts?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Stop dancing around. It's all you do...pathetic.

[B]There is no argument for Terry being better than Gasol...none[/B]

The rest is more BS...take a look at the production above combined with good but not great defense...[/QUOTE]
Wait........


WHAT??? :wtf:


Is this actually being discussed? :roll:

[QUOTE=NumberSix]Wait........


WHAT??? :wtf:


Is this actually being discussed? :roll:[/QUOTE]

Yes. He said 11 Terry was one of the best 2nd options...better than Gasol.

And what makes it even better...he claims individual defense is extremely important. Terry, is one of the worst perimeter defenders in the league...he's atrocious. He is a net negative...his teams always get noticeably better on defense when he's out of the game.

Yep...you heard it right. 11 Terry was better than 10 Gasol...rofl

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Tyson Chandler was the only starter missing. That definitely not a completely different roster. Starters are considered the core.

I spelled it out for you. I said the names of the PFs. Why are you talking about the top ten?

Dirk was not mentioned with the players I NAMED before 2011.[/QUOTE]

Stevenson was gone too. Lamar Odom experiment failed and probably was distraction for that team to overcome.


As for the PF thing, we just have different ways to look at it. I certainly don't think Nowtizki joined that class in 2011. Joined it much before and the 11 run helped it out further.

[QUOTE=Random_Guy]Who would you take?[/QUOTE]

I would take ... both. What do I win?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
[B]And again. They played good, but hardly great defense. Had about a 106 defensive rating in the playoffs...just not special overall. [/B] That is just meh at best historically for title winning teams. There was a reason they were 20 to 1 underdogs and it wasn't because of "Dirk" like you said...[/QUOTE]
Cmon man.. you know this isnt genuine. You're only looking at how their team defense played and not how individual matchups were affected.

Lebron's numbers got squashed because of great individual defense from Shawn Marion and partly Tyson. Kobe's numbers were squashed because of Kidd and Marion. Durant was locked down by Marion in crunchtime big time. As far as individual defensive matchups go, stars on the opposing teams were being locked down by Mavs defenders.

And the individual defensive battles that were won had a HUGE impact on the outcomes of the games. If you knock Bron off his game.. I dont care what your team defensive rating is at the end of it.. you're going to have a much higher chance of winning.

You can give credit for Dirk knocking Aldridge off his game in the first round I guess.. but Marion/Kidd deserve even more credit for knocking Kobe, Durant, and Lebron off their games because if they didnt do that, [B]Dirk's offense would not have been enough. [/B]

Lebron 27/7 51FG --> 18/7 48FG
Durant 28/3 46FG --> 28/4 43FG
Kobe 25/5 45FG --> 23/2 46FG

And on top of all their offensive averages being worse, all three of these guys got shutdown in the clutch.. bad. Kobe was bricking potential gamewinners, Lebron was too scared to even shoot them, and KD could barely get his shot off. These guys were all knocked off their games when playing the mavs.. and that matters a ton when looking at their defense. It definitely was a huge reason they won.

[QUOTE=tpols]Cmon man.. you know this isnt genuine. You're only looking at how their team defense played and not how individual matchups were affected.

Lebron's numbers got squashed because of great individual defense from Shawn Marion and partly Tyson. Kobe's numbers were squashed because of Kidd and Marion. Durant was locked down by Marion in crunchtime big time. As far as individual defensive matchups go, stars on the opposing teams were being locked down by Mavs defenders.

And the individual defensive battles that were won had a HUGE impact on the outcomes of the games. If you knock Bron off his game.. I dont care what your team defensive rating is at the end of it.. you're going to have a much higher chance of winning.

You can give credit for Dirk knocking Aldridge off his game in the first round I guess.. but Marion/Kidd deserve even more credit for knocking Kobe, Durant, and Lebron off their games because if they didnt do that, [B]Dirk's offense would not have been enough. [/B][/QUOTE]
:applause:

[QUOTE=tpols]Cmon man.. you know this isnt genuine. You're only looking at how their team defense played and not how individual matchups were affected.

Lebron's numbers got squashed because of great individual defense from Shawn Marion and partly Tyson. Kobe's numbers were squashed because of Kidd and Marion. Durant was locked down by Marion in crunchtime big time. As far as individual defensive matchups go, stars on the opposing teams were being locked down by Mavs defenders.

And the individual defensive battles that were won had a HUGE impact on the outcomes of the games. If you knock Bron off his game.. I dont care what your team defensive rating is at the end of it.. you're going to have a much higher chance of winning.

You can give credit for Dirk knocking Aldridge off his game in the first round I guess.. but Marion/Kidd deserve even more credit for knocking Kobe, Durant, and Lebron off their games because if they didnt do that, [B]Dirk's offense would not have been enough. [/B][/QUOTE]

Total strawman.

Of course Dirk's offense would not have been enough with no defense at all. Have you ever thought about the defense not being enough without Dirk's great offense?

One was special...and that was Dirk's offensive impact on the team (115 rating) which I'm pretty sure was the best by the first option on a team that won the title since 2011. And one was good, but not great. It was situationally great at times, but overall...it was one of the weaker defenses that won the title. You can blame that weaker defense on Dirk, and that is fine, but don't call it a great defense. It wasn't.

Almost every other team that won the title held teams to worse overall efficiency from the field and had better defensive metrics.

It absolutely is genuine and your post is attacking something that doesn't exist. Nobody is saying that Dirk wins without help...nobody is saying the team defense wasn't important or really good. It just wasn't actually great historically the way PG has said on here. Like I said above, for example, the Lakers in 09 simply played better defense overall than the Mavs did in 11.

Like the Lakers shutting down Howard in the finals. He averaged 15 ppg in the finals. Down from 21 in the regular season..and he was at like 23 ppg going into the finals on like 64% shooting...He shot 48% in the finals. Carmelo averaged like 27 on 41% fg and 25% 3. Before that in the playoffs he was doing like 27 on 48% fg and 48% 3...

The point is that you could do this with so many teams. Does Kobe get no credit? It's not like he did much to the defense...the defense actually got slightly better with him off the floor. Why does Dirk get no credit? Not only did the teams defense get better when he was on the floor, but the opposing pf's did nothing against us all playoffs...well, LA killed us until Rick made the switch. So he improves the defense, improves the defensive rebounding...and the opposing pf's did nothing. Sorry, you can't just pretend Dirk had no impact on the defense...he factually did.

Kobe's offense would not have been enough. I say that as a fact, but why would that be a knock on Kobe? His offense and play was still by far the most important thing for those Lakers teams...

Dirk needing a good, but not great defense and a good, but not great 2nd option is not a knock on him. Virtually every team of the era that has won the title played as good or better defense other than the 2010 Lakers...and every team had a clear cut better 2nd option than Terry other than the 03 Spurs.

Seriously...this was the help...right here;

Terry 18/2/3
Kidd 9/5/7
Marion 12/6/2
Chandler 8/9/0
Barea 9/2/3
Peja 7/2/0
Stevenson 5/1/1
Haywood 3/4/0

And pretending these guys formulated a defense like the 04 Pistons or some of the great Spurs defenses is simply false.


So I'm just trying to figure it all out. Knowing that you are a Kobe stan...lets look at this;

28/8/3 61% TS vs 30/5/6 56% TS

Statistically, Kobe had less of an impact on his teams defense...and the Lakers held opposing teams to lower overall efficiency and held a higher defensive rating in the playoffs than the 11 Mavs did.

Furthermore, the Lakers didn't have to play as many close games as the Mavs did.

[B]Here is what they did in crunch time per 36 minutes;

Kobe - 34 points on 41/25/85 shooting splits 54.3% TS...6-4 record in those games

Dirk - 48 points on 54/60/97 shooting splits 77% TS...11-5 record in those games[/B]

Like...should we really ignore the bold and pretend it didn't happen?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
It absolutely is genuine and your post is attacking something that doesn't exist. [B]Nobody is saying that Dirk wins without help...nobody is saying the team defense wasn't important or really good. It just wasn't actually great historically the way PG has said on here.[/B] Like I said above, for example, the Lakers in 09 simply played better defense overall than the Mavs did in 11.

Like the Lakers shutting down Howard in the finals. He averaged 15 ppg in the finals. Down from 21 in the regular season..and he was at like 23 ppg going into the finals on like 64% shooting...He shot 48% in the finals. Carmelo averaged like 27 on 41% fg and 25% 3. Before that in the playoffs he was doing like 27 on 48% fg and 48% 3...

And pretending these guys formulated a defense like the 04 Pistons or some of the great Spurs defenses is simply false.
[/QUOTE]
But it was to the bolded. Marion/Kidd/Chandler collectively shut down 3 superstars in a row with great individual defensive stands.

Dwight isnt Lebron offensively.. it's not even close. Melo isnt Durant or Kobe.. again not close. The Lakers didn't win because they were shutting down individual matchups on a consistent basis. They won because they had the best frontline and best player in every series they played. Those were their two strengths.

The Mavericks won because a) their individual defenders shut down the other teams superstar for three rounds in a row and b) Dirk going off in the clutch. Both were equally as important. Just like Kobe isnt winning without his frontline, Dirk isnt winning without his individual defenders having a all time great defensive stand.

[B]The main difference here is that everyone acknowledges Kobe's help as being great.. you still dont acknowledge that how the Mavs players performed was great as well.[/B] You keep listing names and offensive stats and brush aside important things like lockdown defense as 'eh it was good'. Sorry man.. not true. It was instrumental and one of the most important things in the entire run.

Dont pull any more team defense stats when were talking about matchups.. and even worse, dont pull out the Dirk's on off impact on defense when he sat with Tyson on the bench for the majority of his on off minutes. Your use of stats is utterly useless sometimes.

[QUOTE=tpols]But it was to the bolded. Marion/Kidd/Chandler collectively shut down 3 superstars in a row with great individual defensive stands.

Dwight isnt Lebron offensively.. it's not even close. Melo isnt Durant or Kobe.. again not close. The Lakers didn't win because they were shutting down individual matchups on a consistent basis. They won because they had the best frontline and best player in every series they played. Those were their two strengths.

The Mavericks won because a) their individual defenders shut down the other teams superstar for three rounds in a row and b) Dirk going off in the clutch. Both were equally as important. Just like Kobe isnt winning without his frontline, Dirk isnt winning without his individual defenders having a all time great defensive stand.

[B]The main difference here is that everyone acknowledges Kobe's help as being great.. you still dont acknowledge that how the Mavs players performed was great as well.[/B] You keep listing names and offensive stats and brush aside important things like lockdown defense as 'eh it was good'. Sorry man.. not true. It was instrumental and one of the most important things in the entire run.

Dont pull any more team defense stats when were talking about matchups.. and even worse, dont pull out the Dirk's on off impact on defense when he sat with Tyson on the bench for the majority of his on off minutes. Your use of stats is utterly useless sometimes.[/QUOTE]

Lets try this on. 09 Melo was definitely on par with 11 Durant...and 09 Melo was definitely better than 11 Kobe. Sorry. 09 Melo in the playoffs was a beast...best ball he's ever played by far. The fact that you think 11 Kobe was better offensively and it's not close just shows how ignorant you are.

The stats are important. Dirk played plenty of time without Chandler. In fact, he played at least 7 minutes per game without Chandler...and that is if Chandler was never on the court when Dirk was off. So most likely...Dirk was on the court between 9 and 10 minutes a game without Chandler...that is roughly 25% of on court time. Ouch...facts hurting your arguments again.

You also fail to talk about Wade absolutely shredding us in the finals. Funny how you miss that...right?

I don't even know your point now. I'm not saying Dirk won alone...I never have. But if you want me to say that what Dirk brought to the table was not clearly the most important cog in the Mavs machine...I won't. What Dirk did was the most important...it was more important than anything else that happened. And the defense overall was simply not as good as you say. I've showed you the actual ****ing data...you are just running to bias from watching Lebron and Kobe struggle. Was Dirk's help great? Well...no...not at all for title winning teams. It was below average actually for title winning teams. Terry is a historically weak 2nd option and the team defense was absolutely nothing special for title winning teams. It was a really good team that got hot and saw their best player play at a level in close games not seen since MJ...



And again you don't give Dirk any credit. He improved the defense, played very good individual defense at his position, and improved the defensive rebounding...and he made no impact? LOL

You can't just run to Chandler to explain everything. You do realize that Chandler only played 32 mpg...right?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Lets try this on. 09 Melo was definitely on par with 11 Durant...and 09 Melo was definitely better than 11 Kobe. Sorry. 09 Melo in the playoffs was a beast...best ball he's ever played by far. The fact that you think 11 Kobe was better offensively and it's not close just shows how ignorant you are.

The stats are important. Dirk played plenty of time without Chandler. In fact, he played at least 7 minutes per game without Chandler...and that is if Chandler was never on the court when Dirk was off. So most likely...Dirk was on the court between 9 and 10 minutes a game without Chandler...that is roughly 25% of on court time. Ouch...facts hurting your arguments again.

You also fail to talk about Wade absolutely shredding us in the finals. Funny how you miss that...right?

I don't even know your point now. I'm not saying Dirk won alone...I never have. But if you want me to say that what Dirk brought to the table was not clearly the most important cog in the Mavs machine...I won't. What Dirk did was the most important...it was more important than anything else that happened. And the defense overall was simply not as good as you say. I've showed you the actual ****ing data...you are just running to bias from watching Lebron and Kobe struggle. Was Dirk's help great? Well...no...not at all for title winning teams. It was below average actually for title winning teams. Terry is a historically weak 2nd option and the team defense was absolutely nothing special for title winning teams. It was a really good team that got hot and saw their best player play at a level in close games not seen since MJ...

And again you don't give Dirk any credit. He improved the defense, played very good individual defense at his position, and improved the defensive rebounding...and he made no impact? LOL

You can't just run to Chandler to explain everything. You do realize that Chandler only played 32 mpg...right?[/QUOTE]
I disagree with your assessment on Melo.. but its besides the point. You cant say vanything about Lebron versus Dwight offensively. Wade? Sure he stepped it up in the Finals.. except in the last two games when Kidd held him to 42% shooting and shut him down in the clutch.. No coincidence Dallas won those games while Dirk was shooting 18/45 from the floor including a never talked about 9 for 27 close out game.:oldlol:


Overall? LA wasnt shutting down premier talent over and over like the Mavs were. Kobe-->Durant-->Lebron is a lot more impressive than Melo(who was shutdown on the perimeter.. where Kobe plays.. not like Dirk had any hand at all in stopping Durant/Kobe/Bron)-->Dwight(whose offensive game has been completely exposed in recent years anyways).


Just admit it.. Mavs indivudal defensive assignments were CRITICAL in them winning. Why is it so hard for only you to accept?

[QUOTE=tpols]I disagree with your assessment on Melo.. but its besides the point. You cant say vanything about Lebron versus Dwight offensively. Wade? Sure he stepped it up in the Finals.. except in the last two games when Kidd held him to 42% shooting and shut him down in the clutch.. No coincidence Dallas won those games while Dirk was shooting 18/45 from the floor including a never talked about 9 for 27 close out game.:oldlol:


Overall? LA wasnt shutting down premier talent over and over like the Mavs were. Kobe-->Durant-->Lebron is a lot more impressive than Melo(who was shutdown on the perimeter.. where Kobe plays.. not like Dirk had any hand at all in stopping Durant/Kobe/Bron)-->Dwight(whose offensive game has been completely exposed in recent years anyways).


Just admit it.. Mavs indivudal defensive assignments were CRITICAL in them winning. Why is it so hard for only you to accept?[/QUOTE]


I'm not saying the defense wasn't important. I'm saying that it was routine for all championship teams to play defense like that. And no...I'm not denying how important it was. But what you are doing is ignoring that championship teams routinely play better defense than the 11 Mavs did. You talked about Kobe's frontcourt in 09...but you fail to realize the team defense they played at least as good as the Mavs in 11 overall. You can't just remove Kobe from it...Kobe made an impact on the defense...you essentially are doubling up on Dirk pretending he just does nothing. It just doesn't work that way...it would be like me saying that Kobe needed a better defense, better front court, better 2nd option, better coaching...etc. It's doubling up. It's built in to the front court talk...the defense of the Mavs, for starters, wasn't as good...and Dirk impacted it whether you like it or not.

09 Melo was clearly better than 11 Kobe in the playoffs. It's not ****ing debatable. And limiting an interior player is no more or less valuable than limiting a perimeter player. The Lakers shut Howard down compared to what he was doing before. I never said it was harder to shut him down than Lebron...I was just giving you more examples.

The defense the Mavs played was very good...it just wasn't great and it wasn't as important as Dirk. It's not hard. Seriously...go down the list...it's actually one of the overall weaker defenses in the playoffs to win the title.

And I love how you just shrug off Wade like he didn't go nuts the first 4 games and then got hurt luckily.

But again...my issue isn't with giving the defense credit. It was very important. the issue is pretending like Dirk did nothing to help it...which is just factually false no matter how hard you try.

Tpols...you constantly talk out of your ass...and got caught as usual.

Are you willing to retract the following statements?

1. 11 Kobe was easily better than 09 Melo offensively in the playoffs...can't wait to hear this one...

[B]Kobe 23/3/3 on 53.6% TS vs Melo 27/6/4 56.4% TS, but yep...Kobe was definitely better and it wasn't close...dat tpols logic...[/B]

2. That Dirk never played without Chandler...I showed you that he was probably playing between 8 to 10 minutes a game without him...roughly 25% of his time on the court...and the Mavs defense got better with Dirk out there...it's a ****ing fact


This is what is really going on. It's a bunch of people that were wrong about Dirk and hate admitting that...so they have to come up with reasons why the Mavs won and exclude Dirk. You have to ignore that the Mavs literally fell apart on offense without Dirk in the games in the playoffs...if these guys were so good...why couldn't they do anything on offense without Dirk? 115 offensive rating with Dirk on the floor...101.8 with him out. ROFL...that is horrible. But he wasn't as important as the defense he improved by being on the floor. A 104.8 defensive rating with Dirk...108.4 rating without him. So you have to ignore all that stuff and pretend like a guy averaging 18/2/3 and a center playing good defense averaging 8/9/1 and a few other solid role players constitutes this amazing, never before seen, type team. When in reality...the 11 Mavs supporting cast was ho hum for a title winner...towards the bottom when you factor in competition level vs team strength...

These are strawmans but theyre too easy so Ill respond..

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
1. 11 Kobe was easily better than 09 Melo offensively in the playoffs...can't wait to hear this one...

[B]Kobe 23/3/3 on 53.6% TS vs Melo 27/6/4 56.4% TS, but yep...Kobe was definitely better and it wasn't close...dat tpols logic...[/B][/QUOTE]

You're using a small sample of stats where Kobe was shut down by individual lockdown maverick defense that I have been advocating for all along to prove YOUR point? Checkmate?:oldlol:


[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
2. That Dirk never played without Chandler...I showed you that he was probably playing between 8 to 10 minutes a game without him...roughly 25% of his time on the court..[B].and the Mavs defense got better with Dirk out there.[/B]..[/QUOTE]
And the other 75% of the time he's with Chandler??

Like I said, Chandler and Dirk are intertwined in the defensive on/off for 75% of Dirk's play.. your stats are literally meaningless.


And Dirk did NOTHING to slow down Kobe/Durant/Wade/Lebron.. literally nothing. It was Tyson/Kidd/Marion that were carrying that load. And they consistently shut down the superstars.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
2. That Dirk never played without Chandler...
.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=tpols]
Dont pull any more team defense stats when were talking about matchups.. and even worse, dont pull out the Dirk's on off impact on defens[B]e when he sat with Tyson on the bench for the majority of his on off minutes[/B]. Your use of stats is utterly useless sometimes.[/QUOTE]

Another DMAVs strawman.. I didnt say Dirk never played without Tyson.. I said the majority. And I was right. 75% of the time would constitute that.

Fvck off dude.