The GOAT List: 2014 Edition

[QUOTE=DatAsh]One thing I really like that you do is that you take into account a player's ability to play different roles, and what that means to team success. Personally, I'd rather have a player that is mediocre as a first option, but great as a second or third option, than a player who is great as a first option - though not great enough to win it all - and mediocre to bad as a second or third option. If you accept the fact that the first option player isn't good enough to win it all as a first option, is there every any scenario where he gives you a better chance of winning than the "role" player?[/QUOTE]
:applause:

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]Bosh is someone imo that will probably be overrated as hell after his career is over. From his absurd amount of all-star selections to being a member of the "Big 3", he'll be considered a much better than he actually was, especially by those who never watched him play.

To me, Bosh is a good player, but he's honestly just nothing special. He was never once relevant to the league in his Toronto days, he put up good numbers on a bad team, not much different from the likes of Elton Brand or Zach Randolph. I attribute him making 9 all-star games due to playing in the East, and I have a hard time believing he'd make even close to that amount had he been playing the West and competing with the likes of Duncan, KG, & Dirk for all-star spots.

Even his contributions in Miami have been far from impressive. You cited some of the things he improved, such as his jump shooting and some aspects of his defense, which is commendable. But his impact on the Heat has honestly been completely underwhelming. He hasn't received any kind of accolade in his 4 seasons in Miami, not a single All-NBA or All-Defensive team selection, and he never even garnered a single MVP vote.

Even his impact in the playoffs hasn't been that impressive He was injured for most of the 2012 playoffs and played decently, having maybe 3 good games in that run. However, you can't say the same about 2013. He grabbed that rebound in Game 6 over someone 5 inches shorter than, fine, but he was terrible in that playoff run, and ABYSMAL in the final two rounds. He averaged 11 & 6 on 42% in the ECF & Finals and got frequently outplayed and even dominated by Hibbert & Duncan.

In conclusion, Bosh is a good player, nothing more, nothing less, and would have absolutely irrelevant to the history of the league had he not joined a team with a top 10 & top 25 player of all time in their primes.[/QUOTE]
Have you watched Bosh in Miami, no plays ran for him.

His 5 All-Star years in Toronto, he's 23/10. And if Miami used him correctly, he's doin better than the 17/8, still not bad for someone who's a role player now. James Worthy and Robert Parish avg similar numbers.

There's really no difference between him and Gasol. Pau never got out the first round in Memphis, like Bosh. Over in LA, he wins two rings. And even being the clear cut 2nd banana over in LA, there numbers are very similar. 18/10 as #2 vs 17/8 as #3.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Have you watched Bosh in Miami, no plays ran for him.

His 5 All-Star years in Toronto, he's 23/10. And if Miami used him correctly, he's doin better than the 17/8, still not bad for someone who's a role player now. James Worthy and Robert Parish avg similar numbers.

There's really no difference between him and Gasol. Pau never got out the first round in Memphis, like Bosh. Over in LA, he wins two rings. And even being the clear cut 2nd banana over in LA, there numbers are very similar. 18/10 as #2 vs 17/8 as #3.[/QUOTE]

You're right, Gasol & Bosh are basically on the same level as players. But even if you factor in what option they were, the difference in their playoff numbers & impact during their championship years is too great to ignore

Gasol 09-10: 19, 11, 3 on 56%, 19 & 18 in Game 7 of the Finals
Bosh 12-13: 13 & 8 on 47%, zero points in Game 7 of the Finals

As for Parish & Worthy in their championship years

Parish: 15 & 9 on 48%, 14 & 16 in Game 7 of the Finals
Worthy: 22, 6, 3 on 58%, 36, 16, 10 in Game 7 of the Finals

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]You're right, Gasol & Bosh are basically on the same level as players. But even if you factor in what option they were, the difference in their playoff numbers & impact during their championship years is too great to ignore

Gasol 09-10: 19, 11, 3 on 56%, 19 & 18 in Game 7 of the Finals
Bosh 12-13: 13 & 8 on 47%, zero points in Game 7 of the Finals

As for Parish & Worthy in their championship years

Parish: 15 & 9 on 48%, 14 & 16 in Game 7 of the Finals
Worthy: 22, 6, 3 on 58%, 36, 16, 10 in Game 7 of the Finals[/QUOTE]
Well Parish and Worthy are much better than both. I Was just throwing 3rd option names out.

I think the 2nd vs. 3rd option is a major factor. If Bosh was a 2nd option throwing up a goose egg in a game 7, it would matter (and if they had lost.) But they won, and as you said his impact was minimal in the championship years.

He was not used correctly in the Big 3 era, anyone could see that.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Well Parish and Worthy are much better than both. I Was just throwing 3rd option names out.

I think the 2nd vs. 3rd option is a major factor. If Bosh was a 2nd option throwing up a goose egg in a game 7, it would matter (and if they had lost.) But they won, and as you said his impact was minimal in the championship years.

He was not used correctly in the Big 3 era, anyone could see that.[/QUOTE]
He was a 3rd option because of his talent but he got the same kind of shots Allen, Battier, Miller and their PGs got. Just passes out on double teams or drives by Lebron and D.Wade. AND he had to be the primary rebounder and bigmen defender. While Wade and sometimes Lebron rested on defense, letting Battier, Chalmers and others do the dirty work, Bosh was not allowed to rest.

Gasol vs Bosh is a nice debate, but i see Pau as the better player. Bosh is a little better on D but Pau is a true 1b-option on a contender. Thats something Bosh is not. He is versitile because of his 3s but you are not calling a isolation play for him in the clutch in the finals against a Garnett.

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#124 George Harry Yardley III
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[B]Vitals:[/B] 6'5" 190 lbs
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Elite Talents: Borderline Alphas
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 1953-1960 (6 prime)
[B]Primary Role(s) and Averages:[/B] #1/#2 on borderline contenders; 21-9-2 on 42/78
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"][SIZE="6"]N[/SIZE]icknamed Yardbird because of his Military background and his last name, he eventually became Bird as fans and opponents watched him rise to stardom right along with the NBA in the shot clock era. A high scoring, high flying forward, Yardley fought for a starting spot in 1954, got it and helped lead the Pistons to consecutive finals appearances, went on to set scoring records. Was traded the next season, some say, in part because the owners Girlfriend thought he was ugly. Helped revitalize an aging Syracuse team in 1959 and 1960 and retired on his terms while still playing the game at a high level. George Yardley played a game ahead of it

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#123 Donald Neil Johnston
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[B]Vitals:[/B] 6'8" 210 lbs
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Elite Talents: Borderline Alphas
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 1951-59 (6 prime)
[B]Primary Role(s) and Averages:[/B] #1 on bad teams (3 years; 23-13-3 on 45/74)
#2 on Champions and contenders (3 years; 22-12-3 on 44/82)
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"][SIZE="6"]W[/SIZE]hen he finished his collegiate days at Ohio State Neil Johnston thought he’d make his father happy and become a major league baseball player. But after an arm injury, as Johnston put it “I was a fastball pitcher with no fastball” and the 6’7” gangly strong Buckeye deciding to give the fledgling NBA a shot. After fighting for playing time his first season, the departure of forwards Joe Fulks (retirement) and Paul Arizin (Korean War) opened the door for Johnston to become the next scoring star in line for Eddie Gottlieb’s Philadelphia Warriors. Johnston played his entire career with the Warriors and his loyalty was rewarded by Gottlieb who made him head coach after his playing days. Johnston’s all-around offensive excellence allowed him to build a gaudy resume in his short career and as well playing a key role on a Championship team. That combination has allowed him to be remembered as one of the greatest players of his or any other era.

[b]Resume:[/b] 8 seasons - 6x all-star, 5x all-NBA, 4x 1st Team all-NBA, 1956 NBA Champion, 3x Scoring leader, 1x rebounding leader, 3x fg% leader, 6x top ten PPG, 5x top ten RPG, 6x top ten fg%, 2x top ten ft%, 6x top ten WS (5x 1st), 6x top ten PER (1x 1st)

-stat junkies dream player
-played on four last place teams in eight seasons
-led league in MPG twice

[b]What Makes Him Elite:[/b] Great scorer and athletic center for his era. He is remembered for his sweeping hook shot and one hand set shot which he made with remarkable consistency. Three-time scoring Champion and one of the most efficient shooters of his day. Won scoring titles while Mikan was still active; only player to do so are him and teammate Paul Arizin. Also a top rebounder (league leader in 1955) and a capable playmaker from the pivot. Second best player on 1956 NBA Champions, had a few 30+ games in that playoff run. Four-time all-NBA first team selection, only exceeded by Mikan in terms of centers drafted before 1959.

[b]What are his Weaknesses/Limitations:[/b] Not a good defensive player; often gave up as many points as he scored. Got outplayed by lesser regarded rival centers Red Kerr (1957) and Larry Foust (1956) during playoff series in his prime. Only played in two other playoffs and was either injured or an insignificant factor in those years. Was famously held scoreless in 42 minutes against Bill Russell during Russell’s rookie year, that is often cited as the end of Johnston’s career as an all-star. He clearly struggled with larger more athletic big men coming to the league.

[b]Peak Season:[/b] 1955-56 has to be the one. The leagues most efficient marksman at 46%, he was the Warriors seconding leading scorer, top rebounder and was third in assists as they won 45 games and lost just 27, making them six games better than anyone else in basketball. In the playoffs they survived a do or die game five against the defending Champion Nationals before rolling past the powerful Pistons in four games to one in the NBA Finals. Neil averaged 20 points a league best 14 rebounds and 5 assists for the playoffs despite struggling with his shot.

[b]Low Point:[/b] Though many cite the Russell game as the end of Johnston’s career, it was really just a highlight of the weakness he had throughout his career. He was better suited to be a forward, but because of when he played, he was made a center. As a result he struggled mightily against larger men who were as athletic as he was. Even comparable players like Foust, Kerr and Harry Gallatin might bother Johnston but the likes of Russell and Chamberlain (who boasts of whooping Johnston while he was still in high school) were far too much for him to handle. After a knee injury during an exhibition game against St. Louis in 1958 cost Johnston what was left of his athleticism, Eddie Gottlieb moved him to head coach. That was his low point in my opinion as he struggled with Wilt Chamberlain who refused to listen to Johnston’s instructions or discipline in practice nor would he leave the game for a substitute when Johnston tried to replace him.

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#122 Max Zaslofsky
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[b]Vitals:[/b] 6

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]You're right, Gasol & Bosh are basically on the same level as players. But even if you factor in what option they were, the difference in their playoff numbers & impact during their championship years is too great to ignore

Gasol 09-10: 19, 11, 3 on 56%, 19 & 18 in Game 7 of the Finals
Bosh 12-13: 13 & 8 on 47%, zero points in Game 7 of the Finals

As for Parish & Worthy in their championship years

Parish: 15 & 9 on 48%, 14 & 16 in Game 7 of the Finals
Worthy: 22, 6, 3 on 58%, 36, 16, 10 in Game 7 of the Finals[/QUOTE]

I'd take a Prime Pau over Bosh any day of the week. Bosh while clearly the superior defender isn't even close to Pau offensively. He's the better shooter but the day he joined the Heat his ability to iso seemed to disappear. I don't want to hear the "lack of plays ran for him" argument either because he's been given the opportunity plenty of times during games and him in iso situations is just cringe-worthy. With Pau you can dump it into the post and watch him make things happen, whereas with Bosh you don't know what you're going to get.

I'd have Yardley and Johnston over Max. Them playing with BAA and NBL together some years he gradually got worse when the leagues got together.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]I'd have Yardley and Johnston over Max.[/QUOTE]

Me too, although I'm glad to see Zaslofsky getting some recognition.

I'm interested to see where Joe Fulks ranks. One of the all-time greats IMO.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]I'd have Yardley and Johnston over Max. Them playing with BAA and NBL together some years he gradually got worse when the leagues got together.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=WillC]Me too, although I'm glad to see Zaslofsky getting some recognition.

I'm interested to see where Joe Fulks ranks. One of the all-time greats IMO.[/QUOTE]

Within the tiers, there is a lot of fluidity with my rankings. I could probably be talked into almost any order within most of them if I've done a good job. As to this trio, I tend to agree with you guys, especially having discussed these players more frequently as of late due to our HOF project. I think if I did the rankings today I'd have Yardley, Johnston and Zaslofsky.

I may have just read something about Max that made me want to give him a bump up the day I finalized the rankings for this years list.

Fulks is a bit higher, without spoiling too much, inside the top 100. Though he was clearly a product of his era, I feel like he elevated the standard for forwards almost as much as Mikan did for centers. Few players were ever as great in their time as Jumpin' Joe Fulks.

That's as always to both you guys for all your help and support with my endeavors online and for pushing this project along with your constant involvement, it is much appreciated.

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#121 Walter Jones Bellamy
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[B]Vitals:[/B] 6'11" 245 lbs
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Elite Talents: Borderline Alphas
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 1961-1975 (10 prime)
[B][U]Primary Role(s) and Averages:[/U][/B]
Best player on bad teams (3 years; 29-16-2 on 52/66)
#1/#2/#3 on borderline playoff teams (7 years; 18-13-2 on 52/62)

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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]F[/SIZE]ew players are as difficult to rank as Walt Bellamy. Surely some will think this is way too low and I

If you thought the SLAM 500 has him ranked too high the SLAM top 75 from 2003 has him ranked at #35 right in front of David Robinson.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]If you thought the SLAM 500 has him ranked too high the SLAM top 75 from 2003 has him ranked at #35 right in front of David Robinson.[/QUOTE]

Where would you rank him?

How does he fit in among:

Sikma
Mutombo
Johnston
Beaty
Laimbeer
Issel
Daugherty
Yao
Mourning
Daniels
Lanier

just better or worse if you like...