1994 Pippen should have been mvp

[QUOTE=Whoah10115;14029366]Miller wasn't on the very shortlist in the 90s, but that only means the 90s were great.

It's reasonable to take Richmond over him, especially in a vacuum, because Richmond was one of the game's best players.

But Reggie was great. Terrifying to play against, and not just because a little me saw him do something crazy against us.

I saw an older him go off against the Nets, taking it to the rim in OT. Miller can stand against Ray and all the guards of that class.[/QUOTE]

My thoughts exactly.

Unlike someone on here who gets trigerred when Pippen gets compared to his peers as if he was some sort of irreplaceable legend who did no wrong.

Regularized Adjusted Plus Minus (RAPM) gives you a better "apples to apples" comparison of a player's impact since it incorporates everything they do to impact the game and is the same for everyone (e.g., it doesn't reward low usage catch and shoot types). For the players discussed the most here we have data starting in 1994. All these numbers are "plus" numbers, meaning they helped their teams while on the court.

[U]RAPM for Pippen, Ewing, Miller[/U]

1994: Pippen 3.7, Miller 3.6, Ewing 3.2
1995: Pippen 5.8, Ewing 3.6, Miller 2.4
1996: Pippen 5.5, Miller 3.6, Ewing 2.9
1997: Pippen 6.4, Ewing 5.7, Miller 1.8
1998: Miller 5.1, Pippen 4.7, Ewing 4.6

They all fall off after that. Miller is the best in 99', 00', Pippen in 01', Miller in 02', Pippen in 03'. Miller is ahead in 04' but both are net negative players by that point. Ewing was a net minus from 01' on.

It is pretty clear who the most impactful player of the group was when all were in their primes...no case, doe!

Let's broaden it out.

[U]RAPM Comparison 1994-1998[/U]

1994: Robinson 7.5, Malone 5.9, Hakeem 5.2, Pippen 3.7, Shaq/Barkley/Miller 3.6, Ewing 3.2, Penny 2.9, Payton -0.2
1995: Robinson 8.4, Pippen 5.8, Shaq/Penny 5.6, Malone 5.3, Hakeem 5.1, Barkley 3.9, Ewing 3.6, Miller 2.4, Payton 2.3, Hill 2.2
1996: Robinson 6.5, Penny 5.6, Pippen 5.5, Malone 5.1, Shaq/Hill 4.1, Hakeem 3.9, Miller 3.6, Barkley 3.1, Ewing/Payton 2.9
1997: Pippen 6.4, Ewing 5.7, Malone 5.2, Shaq 4.9, Payton 4.5, Penny/Hakeem 4.0, Hill 3.5, Barkley 2.9, Miller 1.8, Robinson 1.6
1998: Shaq 7.8, Malone 5.5, Hill 5.3, Miller 5.1, Pippen/Payton 4.7, Robinson/Ewing 4.6, Barkley 3.6, Hakeem 3.4, Penny 1.9

This is why you [U]never[/U] see "Pippen detractors" present any info for Pippen in the context of his peers. They know he will come out looking good so conceal the info.

It is always Pippen presented in a vacuum so scrutiny can be applied selectively to him. If you do it across the board, he comes out looking better--like the deception about his 94' playoff scoring/efficiency without reference to Robinson, Ewing, and Shaq's numbers in the same playoff run because they know Robinson, Shaq shrunk in the playoffs--losing 10 PPG and 8 PPG respectively--and Ewing's overall numbers aren't ground because he melted down in the finals. Yet they harp on Pippen who actually scored more in the playoffs than in the regular season.

Can you guys explain to me how a 34 year old Dominique Wilkins having suffered a ruptured achilles a few years back could get traded for a 23.7ppg 7.4rbs 4.2ast 1.3spg 1.4bpg Allstar ('94 Manning) While Pippen at 33 years old coming off six championship rings with the bulls gets traded for Roy freaking Rogers?

Here is how the three players fared in CORP (a measure of how much a player increases a random team's odds of winning a championship) over the 90's:

Miller: 8%, 9%, 8%, 9%, 10%, 10%, 8%, 8%, 8%, 8%
Pippen: 9%, 12%, 12%, 11%, 13%, 14%, 13%, 12%, 7%, 7%
Ewing: 16%, 14%, 12%, 11%, 10%, 8%, 7%, 8%, 4%, 4%

So a similar story. Miller lags behind the others when all are in their primes. When they decline due to injuries and aging Miller maintains and surpasses them by 99'. Ewing is ahead of Pippen in 90', 91'; they are equal in 92', 93' and Pippen is ahead of from from 1994-1999.

For reference, those percentages mean:

GOAT Season (30 percent or more chance of a title on a random team, or about +7 points per game on an average team)
All-Time Season (23-30 percent or +6)
MVP Season (17-23 percent or +5)
[B]Weak MVP Season (12-17 percent or +4)
All-NBA Season (8-12 percent or +2.5)
All-Star Season (5-8 percent or +1)
Strong Role Player (3-5 percent or 0)[/B]
Role Player (1-3 percent or -2 to -0.5)

A player known for the Migraine game, sitting out the last seconds of a playoff game, getting bullied mentally and physically by opponents, incessant trade demands because of a contract he himself signed, sabotaging his teams chances by having his surgery at the start of the season etc.

How does all this factor in improving a random teams chances of winning the championship?

Random advanced stats wont factor in the intangibles that a player brought to the table. That is the reason you see a player coming off six rings get traded for Roy freaking Rogers :roll:

Roundball is a statman, but dumb as rocks in true basketball conversations

[QUOTE=Reggie43;14029771]Can you guys explain to me how a 34 year old Dominique Wilkins having suffered a ruptured achilles a few years back could get traded for a 23.7ppg 7.4rbs 4.2ast 1.3spg 1.4bpg Allstar ('94 Manning) While Pippen at 33 years old coming off six championship rings with the bulls gets traded for Roy freaking Rogers?[/QUOTE]

Why was a reigning league MVP traded for 4 draft picks and a trade exception?

[QUOTE=Overdrive;14029952]Why was a reigning league MVP traded for 4 draft picks and a trade exception?[/QUOTE]

Still 4 picks better than what the Bulls got

[QUOTE]Why was a reigning league MVP traded for 4 draft picks and a trade exception?[/QUOTE]

It is more bad faith. The "trade" (de facto signed with Houston but Chicago did a sign and trade to give him an extra $20 million going away gift. In other words, since the decision was already made there was no "trade" value since Houston had no need to give anything up for a player that was coming anyway. Chicago did him a favor because Pippen brought them multiple rings, unlike others mentioned in this thread) was explained already. It is clear Reggie43 didn't watch back then but this was pointed out earlier, he still continues the TP. :oldlol:

When the real trade proposals Pippen was involved in were raised in another thread we heard silence (especially the one involving Kemp, which showed the GM's of both teams and the coach's of both teams viewed Pippen as clearly superior, as did "league observers").

The Wilkins thing is interesting. He is yet another player these people say was vastly better than Pippen. His team is tied for 1st place at the break (with Chicago), he is averaging 30 PPG--and they ship him away (to purgatory--the Clippers)? That is pretty damning. Yes, he was going to be a free agent at the end of the year but so was Kawhi and so was Manning himself. If you think you can win a chip with a superstar, you keep him. They didn't think Manning was a meaningful drop-off from Nique', an ATG scorer who did little else on the court. Yet Wilkins>>>Pippen, Kemp>>>Pippen when both their teams tell you they value them less than Pippen was valued by teams. Trade value doesn't count except for idiocy over a sign and trade of post-back injury Pippen.

Let's put a bow on the playoff scoring/efficiency TP. Here are the numbers for the top 5 in MVP voting. The change from their regular season production is in parentheses.

[U]1994 Playoff Efficiency/Scoring Comparison of Top 5 MVP candidates[/U]

Scoring: Hakeem 29 (+2), Pippen 23 (+1) Ewing 22 (-3), Shaq 21 (-8), Robinson 20 (-10)
TS %: Hakeem 57% (=), Pippen 52% (-2%), Shaq 52% (-9%), Ewing 50% (-5%), Robinson 47% (-11%)

Yet due to the Jordanstan fun-house mirrors, [I]Pippen[/I] is the one they are attacking on these grounds while advocating for Shaq, Ewing, Robinson over him in MVP . Not only that, Shawn Kemp. Who had another meltdown (a PF shooting 37% from the field) as his team lost to an 8 seed in an all-time choke. (Also, keep in mind Pippen was a SF and the others are all centers...)

Let's also use their fantasy "apples and oranges" are "apples and apples" and compare Robinson (a C) to Malone (a PF) in their series.

[U]Spurs (56 wins) vs. Jazz (53 wins) 1st Round[/U]

Robinson 20/10/4 47% TS
Malone 29/12/2 56% TS

They did not face each other, but under the logic presented here by multiple Pippen haters, Robinson got destroyed by Malone as his team lost 3-1. Ewing, at best, narrowly "outplayed" Pippen. Yet an argument for Robinson over Pippen in MVP is how their play compared to the other #1 option in their final series (no mention of Pippen "vs." Price, who went 15/2/5 on 46% TS).

Then we have Ewing actually getting annihilated by Hakeem in the finals (like he did in the RS against Hakeem and Robinson), Shaq struggling to outscore Rik Smits in a first round sweep to a 47 win team.

Yet Pippen is the one they are railing at for playoff declines, playoff efficiency, and playoff scoring? :roll: The most dishonest fan base in sports.

Walls of bullshit and still no answer why he was traded for Roy freaking Rogers. Are various intangibles whether positive or negative a foreign concept to Roundball "the stats guy"

[QUOTE=Bawkish;14029919]Roundball is a statman, but dumb as rocks in true basketball conversations[/QUOTE]

He’s not a stat man at all. He uses FG% as a measuring stick for scoring. :lol

Imagine getting traded for Roy Rogers one year then Cato and Walt Williams the next because of your toxic attitude but guess what those wont factor in Pippens value because Roundball only understands the game based on stats

If you take the totality of the arguments put forward in this thread against Pippen, the logical conclusion is Pippen should have finished 2nd, not 3rd in MVP, by that very (professed) criteria. :lol

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14030027]If you take the totality of the arguments put forward in this thread against Pippen, the logical conclusion is Pippen should have finished 2nd, not 3rd in MVP, by that very (professed) criteria. :lol[/QUOTE]
:lol