Better at basketball, Jokić or Kobe?

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031597]Hey genius, nobody cared about efficiency back then. Analytics didn't exist. Teams were just trying to win.

The game was physical. Defense was tough. Spacing didn't exist. It was a lot harder to create "efficient" shots. Teams had specialists but they didn't have balanced scoring SEVEN guys down the roster. The Lakers didn't have a ton of skilled guys outside of Kobe and Gasol. They had RELIABLE guys but not very skilled. D-Fish wasn't skilled. Lamar Odom? Eh... he was a jack of all trades ace of none type. A poor man's Pippen but who might not even be as good as Horace Grant. Horace Grant could at least give you tenacious defense on the other end. Ron Artest? Definitely helps out on defense, definitely gives you an edge, but not someone you could call "skilled". Andrew Bynum?? Big, strong... not really "skilled". Semi skilled maybe. The guys today are surrounded by nothing BUT skilled players. Guys you can't leave open. Guys who could run, pass and shoot. Every single guy on the floor is a threat to score at any given moment. The teams that actually do have great 1 on 1 players are at an extreme advantage.

The fact that you would look at someone who has such a decorated career, a guy who was basically worshiped by his own peers even before he died, a guy who most players and coaches from that era say is one of the best to ever do it... and all you could focus on is "efficiency". And not even real efficiency, "advanced" efficiency. Even though in real time nobody fukking cared because all he did was [B]win[/B].

It's pure brain damage.[/QUOTE]
You’re the one trying to rank him second all time. So yeah stats do matter when you want to compare him to those guys. And frankly his stats don’t measure up to guys like Kareem, Wilt, and LeBron. Eve someone like Curry who I’m sure you think isn’t that good cuz he’s modern is pretty clearly better based off impact data.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031601]You’re the one trying to rank him second all time. So yeah stats do matter when you want to compare him to those guys. And frankly his stats don’t measure up to guys like Kareem, Wilt, and LeBron. Eve someone like Curry who I’m sure you think isn’t that good cuz he’s modern is pretty clearly better based off impact data.[/QUOTE]

Comparing 60's stats to 00's stats to 20's stats. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031604]Comparing 60's stats to 00's stats to 20's stats. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Okay take out Wilt if you want. But the thing is we have impact data for Kobe’s entire career and he definitely didn’t stack up to his contemporaries in Shaq Duncan and LeBron.

Still not seeing any case for Kobe over the other two or Shaq, Magic, Hakeem, Duncan or Curry. Maybe you can argue him versus Bird since Bird had a lot of playoff stinkers too. And while I think Kobe is still ahead of Jokic on the GOAT list due to longevity, that should change as well unless Jokic has truly awful longevity (which is always possible).

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031605]Okay take out Wilt if you want. Still not seeing any case for Kobe over the other two or Shaq, Magic, Hakeem, Duncan or Curry. Maybe you can argue him versus Bird since Bird had a lot of playoff stinkers too[/QUOTE]

Comparing 80's stats to 00's stats to 20's stats. :oldlol:

You literally have no idea how to talk about basketball without stats. Probably because you never played growing up.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15031580]I don’t care what stats say Kobe had a great game 7 win vs Boston. I know you trolls just spam 7/24 or whatever it is because you didn’t even watch it but yeah[/QUOTE]

Rondo even credited Kobe for his tenacious defense on Ray and [I]himself[/I]. Kendrick Perkins also recently claimed Kobe's rebounding was one of the biggest reasons that LA won. I personally wouldn't argue his G7 was "great", but given the context it wasn't horrific like stat nerds claim.

I also want to dive deeper into Kobe's elimination games. Baller234 made an interesting post regarding Kobe's early years (before he began and entered his prime). Looking at the numbers in elimination games, Prime Kobe actually averaged 25 on 41% shooting. And if you removed that elimination game 7 vs Houston (LA was already up 20+ in the 2nd quarter :oldlol:), his averages would be 26 on 41%. I didn't calculate the assists or rebounding, but looking at the stats, Kobe was pretty good there too. These numbers also don't tell you about defense and we know in big games Kobe revved it up on that end.

Tallying everything up, I think Kobe was alright in elimination games. Not bad or great. Numbers should always be put into proper perspective though.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031606]Comparing 80's stats to 00's stats to 20's stats. :oldlol:

You literally have no idea how to talk about basketball without stats. Probably because you never played growing up.[/QUOTE]
Are you seriously too dim to realize we have impact data so we can compare different eras? Even if you just compare Kobe to the guys in his own era he was clearly behind Shaq Duncan and LeBron. How can he be top 2 then? All you have are personal attacks and emotional meltdowns while I have data.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031609]Are you seriously too dim to realize we have impact data so we can compare different eras? Even if you just compare Kobe to the guys in his own era he was clearly behind Shaq Duncan and LeBron. How can he be top 2 then? All you have are personal attacks and emotional meltdowns while I have data.[/QUOTE]

You only interpret it as a personal attack because you know it's true. You didn't play. You were never a student of the game.

[QUOTE=Tavr;15031608]Rondo even credited Kobe for his tenacious defense on Ray and [I]himself[/I]. Kendrick Perkins also recently claimed Kobe's rebounding was one of the biggest reasons that LA won. I personally wouldn't argue his G7 was "great", but given the context it wasn't horrific like stat nerds claim.

I also want to dive deeper into Kobe's elimination games. Baller234 made an interesting post regarding Kobe's early years (before he began and entered his prime). Looking at the numbers in elimination games, Prime Kobe actually averaged 25 on 41% shooting. And if you removed that elimination game 7 vs Houston (LA was already up 20+ in the 2nd quarter :oldlol:), his averages would be 26 on 41%. I didn't calculate the assists or rebounding, but looking at the stats, Kobe was pretty good there too. These numbers also don't tell you about defense and we know in big games Kobe revved it up on that end.

Tallying everything up, I think Kobe was alright in elimination games. Not bad or great. Numbers should always be put into proper perspective though.[/QUOTE]

I remember that game vividly still and it was a slow paced defensive grinding game. Boston had an elite D anchored by Kevin Garnet. Kobe obviously knew he was struggling to get good looks and his shot wasn’t falling, a lot of guys curl up when they start feel that happening but he went even harder instead. He got active on the boards and was playing nasty point of attack defense but what was a game changer was during the game Kobe made an adjustment and started sagging off Rondo more and more….allowing him to help defend all over the place. That was one of the big shifts of the game when Kobe started doing that.


So I am not saying throw out stats. Stats are obviously a great tool of measure when used properly. But like you said they need to get put in the proper perspective and recognize the context as well. It’s super hard to cross compare stats across eras but you can make it a little better with pace adjustment and some other tweaks.

Nothing replaces watching the game. I know there aren’t enough hours of the day to watch all the games of even your favorite team. But the more you watch the more you really get a better take on everything. Stats are great but they can only take you so far in terms of seeing the total picture.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15031629]I remember that game vividly still and it was a slow paced defensive grinding game. Boston had an elite D anchored by Kevin Garnet. Kobe obviously knew he was struggling to get good looks and his shot wasn’t falling, a lot of guys curl up when they start feel that happening but he went even harder instead. He got active on the boards and was playing nasty point of attack defense but what was a game changer was during the game Kobe made an adjustment and started sagging off Rondo more and more….allowing him to help defend all over the place. That was one of the big shifts of the game when Kobe started doing that.


So I am not saying throw out stats. Stats are obviously a great tool of measure when used properly. But like you said they need to get put in the proper perspective and recognize the context as well. It’s super hard to cross compare stats across eras but you can make it a little better with pace adjustment and some other tweaks.

Nothing replaces watching the game. I know there aren’t enough hours of the day to watch all the games of even your favorite team. But the more you watch the more you really get a better take on everything. Stats are great but they can only take you so far in terms of seeing the total picture.[/QUOTE]

This is a really good post. We're in full agreement :applause:

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15031456]Career elimination game numbers

[IMG]https://fadeawayworld.net/.image/ar_16:9%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_1200/MjAwNzIxNzUzMjMwNTUwMjIw/376375365_195247706906896_6442094620287754401_n.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Yeah not only that but look at how impressive Jokic's 4-1 record in the finals is compared to Kobe's 23-14.

The PERCENTAGES are so much more impressive than the VOLUME. :facepalm

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031615]You only interpret it as a personal attack because you know it's true. You didn't play. You were never a student of the game.[/QUOTE]
I’ve played and you don’t need to play to know Kobe is overrated. All your arguments are terrible you just rely on emotions and claim stats are biased against poor Kobe :lol

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031653][B]I’ve played[/B] and you don’t need to play to know Kobe is overrated. All your arguments are terrible you just rely on emotions and claim stats are biased against poor Kobe :lol[/QUOTE]


:roll:

Thats the laugh I needed to start the day. Just imagining your goofy fro swaying in the wind, a look of bewilderment on your face as everyone just runs around you, fumbling and stumbling whenever [if ever] you get the ball. Man that would be a sight to behold.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031653]I’ve played and you don’t need to play to know Kobe is overrated. All your arguments are terrible you just rely on emotions and claim stats are biased against poor Kobe :lol[/QUOTE]

No one that grew up playing the game would have such blind allegiance to "data" like you do. It appears to be your only avenue of knowledge. It's the only thing you're interested in talking about.

Stats are just the tip of the iceberg. The raw numbers are what's visible on the surface, but the bulk of what shapes those numbers lie hidden beneath. A bucket scored during the first two minutes of the game is "tallied" the same as a bucket during scored during the last two minutes, but we all know the last two minutes are a much harsher environment to score in. That's just ONE of the countless things the raw numbers don't take into account.

Not to mention you're holding players from the past to a current standard that didn't exist. 60s/70/80s/90s/00s/10s/20s, none of these eras were the same. You can't just stack the numbers side by side and draw your own conclusions.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031658]No one that grew up playing the game would have such blind allegiance to "data" like you do. It appears to be your only avenue of knowledge. It's the only thing you're interested in talking about.

Stats are just the tip of the iceberg. The raw numbers are what's visible on the surface, but the bulk of what shapes those numbers lie hidden beneath. A bucket scored during the first two minutes of the game is "tallied" the same as a bucket during scored during the last two minutes, but we all know the last two minutes are a much harsher environment to score in. That's just ONE of the countless things the raw numbers don't take into account.

Not to mention you're holding players from the past to a current standard that didn't exist. 60s/70/80s/90s/00s/10s/20s, none of these eras were the same. You can't just stack the numbers side by side and draw your own conclusions.[/QUOTE]
Maybe you’re unaware but this data is what NBA teams use to build their roster. Some impact data isn’t publicly available because NBA teams don’t want others to see it in fact. If teams built it based on vibes like you? They’d be terrible. I hate to break it to you but the “nerds” won. That’s how teams get built across sports now. Watch the movie moneyball. People with your primitive mindset got phased out from making decisions in team building.

Smart teams analyze data and don’t base it on who they have a crush on like you do. I get that Kobe made you feel all tingly inside when he made a contested midrange shot but you can’t just ignore stats because they don’t support your loverboy. We can just compare him to his contemporaries and he comes up short so you trying to deflect to other eras is funny considering you have no real argument for how he was better than Shaq LeBron or Duncan besides “clutch bucket getter” or whatever when we already established he wasn’t a particularly good big game performer compared to those guys.

Kobe played like a retard in that game 7 and people here are saying he played a "great game"

Can't make this shit up. :oldlol:

Go to 34:40 mark. The moment Kobe takes a dribble, the Celtics come to double, instead of passing it, he forces terrible shots that miss badly.

[video=youtube;19kCMpF-86c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19kCMpF-86c[/video]