prime dirk vs current durant?

[QUOTE=tpols]These are strawmans but theyre too easy so Ill respond..



You're using a small sample of stats where Kobe was shut down by individual lockdown maverick defense that I have been advocating for all along to prove YOUR point? Checkmate?:oldlol:



And the other 75% of the time he's with Chandler??

Like I said, Chandler and Dirk are intertwined in the defensive on/off for 75% of Dirk's play.. your stats are literally meaningless.


And Dirk did NOTHING to slow down Kobe/Durant/Wade/Lebron.. literally nothing. It was Tyson/Kidd/Marion that were carrying that load. And they consistently shut down the superstars.[/QUOTE]

Not strawmans at all you ****ing moron. 25% is a lot of time to be on the court without the guy that apparently is the only reason Dirk has good defensive measures. Again...the defense improves while Dirk is on the floor. Why doesn't the same thing impact Terry? He's on the floor about 75% of the time with Chandler...yet the defense gets 3 points worse for him. The fact is that Dirk helped the defense...that is my point. And it's clear that the best defenders, using the same criteria, were Chandler, Kidd, and Marion. There is a reason why the defense gets worse when certain guys are on the court. Again...whether you want to admit it or not, the Mavs played good defense with Dirk on the floor. He played the most minutes out of anyone on the team...and made all the impacts I've talked about. Pretending he's JJ Barea or Terry on defense is a joke. Dirk was a positive impact defender on the Mavs...not to mention we haven't discussed your logic last time about how great offensive players allow role players to do their jobs...when you argued for Rose's offense making the defense better. Dirk does that in spades...and happens to improve the defense while he's on the floor.

Now...on to Kobe. Uhhh...no.

Kobe vs the Hornets in round 1:

23/4/4 on 43/37/83

Kobe vs the Mavs:

23/3/3 on 46/23/80

ROFL...yes, it was the Mavs all time great defense that did it. He didn't average virtually the same production in the round before. Holy shit you are a joke. Checkmate? Seriously...what the **** is wrong with you? You can't be this stupid...

And honestly...Kobe's numbers are even better than that because his only shit game was really the game 4 blowout in which Kobe and the Lakers quit. He dropped 36 in game 1 of that series by the way...in case you forgot.

But again you just talk out of your ass. It wasn't the Mavs...he came into the Mavs series essentially averaging what he did during the series...with a game 4 blowout mixed in...LOL

Let me guess...the Hornets also had an unreal defense...right?


And god damnit...stop saying we slowed down Wade. We didn't. A player averaging 27/7/5 on 55% shooting is not slowing a player down. The sad thing...is that it was even worse than that as his play fell off dramatically after his injury. Seriously...you can't just make shit up;

Kobe played just the same he did in his first series...and Wade went off...way better than he was against anyone in the East. Dude averaged 24/7/5 49%fg for the playoffs...with the Mavs series counted. That means he was at like 23/7/5 46% shooting before our series.

So two of the 4 guys you constantly list either played the same (Kobe)...or got noticeably better.

Checkmate?

Whoa??!!! This debate is still going on????

[QUOTE=tpols]Another DMAVs strawman.. I didnt say Dirk never played without Tyson.. I said the majority. And I was right. 75% of the time would constitute that.

Fvck off dude.[/QUOTE]

You dont' get it. The team wouldn't be getting better on defense with Dirk being out there if he didn't make a positive impact on defense. See...Haywood would come in for those minutes often...and the Mavs on court defensive rating for him was 112...and he played 15 mpg. That isn't something to scoff at...it's almost a third of the game. And the defense got noticeably worse with Barea and Peja coming into the game. If Dirk wasn't a positive impact defender...there is no way the team could have kept it's defense solid with the likes of Terry, Barea, ...Peja. Peja and Barea were playing like 19 mpg and Terry was playing 33.

Look...it was obvious to anyone watching that Kidd, Marion, and Chandler were the key defenders. Stevenson play really solid in his minutes as well. But Haywood was hurt and didn't play all that great defense...and the above guys I mentioned just play shit defense...the team got worse with them on the court...and they spent a lot of time on the court.

So it's just virtually impossible for Dirk (if he's a poor defender) to improve the team defense when he's on the court vs off it...given all that. You can't give that much credit to 1 player...playing only 32 minutes per game. How the **** did the Mavs do it the other 16 mpg? Shit...our defense was really bad when Haywood was on the court. We didn't have another big that played any meaningful minutes.

This is why I said the defense was good, but not great. We weren't that good unless Chandler was out there. We were even worse when Chandler was missing and Kidd/Marion were out as well.

If Dirk hurt the Mavs defense. Playing him 40 mpg, along with Terry 33, and 19 each for Barea and Peja...you simply could not have the numbers show what they show. Not only that, but Dirk was the player on our team spending the most time out there playing against the other teams best players and lineups.

You need to understand that Chandler was missing for 16 minutes a game. He only played 2/3 of each game. Marion as well.

This wasn't ****ing prime KG anchoring a defense for like 42 minutes a game. Far from it.

**** off moron.

[B]Oh, just found it. Chandler was on the floor only 67% of the time Dirk was on the floor. that means 33% of the time Dirk was out there...he was without Chandler. Dirk was out there 20% of the time with Haywood at center. Considering the defensive rating of Haywood...and the fact that Haywood played 60% of his minutes with Dirk...it gets virtually impossible to claim Dirk didn't help the defense and give Chandler all the credit.

In addition to the above, the 3rd most used lineup by the mavs in the playoffs was Dirk, Haywood, Barea, Peja, and Terry...[/B]

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Yes. He said 11 Terry was one of the best 2nd options...better than Gasol.

And what makes it even better...he claims individual defense is extremely important. Terry, is one of the worst perimeter defenders in the league...he's atrocious. He is a net negative...his teams always get noticeably better on defense when he's out of the game.

Yep...you heard it right. 11 Terry was better than 10 Gasol...rofl[/QUOTE]



LOOOOLLLLLLLL another Kobetard downplaying Pau in 2008-2010 to make Kobe look better.

[QUOTE=Solefade]LOOOOLLLLLLLL another Kobetard downplaying Pau in 2008-2010 to make Kobe look better.[/QUOTE]

the best part of it is that he rails on Dirk for only being a scorer...saying overall play is much better.

it's why he says Durant is better than prime Dirk..his overall play.

Then, literally 6 posts later.

He says that Terry was better than peak Gasol

That a 18/2/3 player that plays shit defense is better than a 21/11/4 player that plays quality interior defense.

He, of course, left the thread when this was pointed out...:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Stop dancing around. It's all you do...pathetic.

There is no argument for Terry being better than Gasol...none

The rest is more BS...take a look at the production above combined with good but not great defense...

seriously...let's look at the defenses that have won the title lately

Heat in 13 and 12 were better...
Lakers in 10 were worse
Lakers in 09 were better...
Celtics in 08 were better
Spurs in 07 were better
Heat in 06 were better
Spurs in 05 were better
Pistons in 04 were better
Spurs in 03 were better
Lakers in 02 were better
Lakers in 01 were better

Seriously...all of those teams had significantly better defensive metrics in the playoffs [/quote]
I already explained this to you. The metrics doen't mean a thing. If you confuse, isolate or befuddle the leader you don't have to worry about the other metrics. Miami only went after Rose in the previous series. Dallas only needed to go after Lebron and contain Wade. They played man to man and then went hard at Durant near the end of games. The metrics were inferior to that quest.

No leader no win:

Khengis Khan had the best offensive ground army ever. They won thousands of battles without defeat. The metrics were phenomenal. Now without Khan(s) that same army began loosing battles left and right. Same mechanics, same offense, same warring ways. Get the leader and the chips will fall.

Great defenses accomplish great feats.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]Wait........

WHAT??? :wtf:

Is this actually being discussed? :roll:[/QUOTE]

Terry has value like Dirk has value - they score timely baskets. The team covered all the other duties. They needed a guy to score timely buckets and not much else.

Its funny Dirk can be a top twenty GOAT in your guys GOAT list for his ability to score in a timely way in the playoffs. Terry was not only a much more efficient scorer in the crucial finals games (btw, both times), he was nearly as productive. In the loses there is a big difference, but in the wins and crucial games, he is very close to equal.

Terry made more baskets and three pointers shooting 20 shots less in the last three games.

Terry shot 25 for 43 a 58% clip for 22 ppg
Dirk shot. 24 for 64 a 37.5% clip for 25.6 ppg

In the four finals wins:
30/54 555% for Terry
34/86 395% for Dirk

Or thirty more shots for four more baskets. In the '06 finals, in the last three games its very similar to what is above.

Who was the most consistent scorer on Dallas in their Finals wins? I want you to answer that. Who was the most efficient scorer?

Wouldn't it make more sense that Pau Gasol would come in and replace Dirk? But the Dallas team didn't need more rebounds, defense or good interior passing. They just needed more timely buckets.

[QUOTE=Pointguard][B]Terry has value like Dirk has value [/B]- they score timely baskets. The team covered all the other duties. They needed a guy to score timely buckets and not much else.

Its funny Dirk can be a top twenty GOAT in your guys GOAT list for his ability to score in a timely way in the playoffs. Terry was not only a much more efficient scorer in the crucial finals games (btw, both times), he was nearly as productive. In the loses there is a big difference, but in the wins and crucial games, he is very close to equal.

Terry made more baskets and three pointers shooting 20 shots less in the last three games.

Terry shot 25 for 43 a 58% clip for 22 ppg
Dirk shot. 24 for 64 a 37.5% clip for 25.6 ppg

In the four finals wins:
30/54 555% for Terry
34/86 395% for Dirk

Or thirty more shots for four more baskets. In the '06 finals, in the last three games its very similar to what is above.

Who was the most consistent scorer on Dallas in their Finals wins? I want you to answer that. Who was the most efficient scorer?

Wouldn't it make more sense that Pau Gasol would come in and replace Dirk? But the Dallas team didn't need more rebounds, defense or good interior passing. They just needed more timely buckets.[/QUOTE]


:biggums: I think that just kills all your credibility in this arguement

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
The rest is more BS...take a look at the production above combined with good but not great defense...

seriously...let's look at the defenses that have won the title lately

Heat in 13 and 12 were better...
Lakers in 10 were worse
Lakers in 09 were better...
Celtics in 08 were better
Spurs in 07 were better
Heat in 06 were better
Spurs in 05 were better
Pistons in 04 were better
Spurs in 03 were better
Lakers in 02 were better
Lakers in 01 were better
[/quote]
Dirk averaged 26 ppg in the finals. Thats not enough to say his offense was great. It simply isn't. When you consider that the team he faced had a guy average 9 more ppg before his prime do it. And another guy that would go on to average 3 more ppg than that the next year. Almost every year you mentioned that had a great scorer, someone scored more than 26ppg. It was very good but definitely not enough to claim it was worth more than the defense.

If Dirk's offense won the series then he simply outscores Wade and he didn't even accomplish that. To say his offense was as much as the Dallas defense doesn't make sense.

:facepalm Dirk won it all by himself this Dmavs guy is full of himself and giving little credit to his teammates even playing by the numbers and yet has no numbers showing that dirk was a great defensively while kidd marion chandler controlled the numbers of the opponent .. i am not saying that dirk is bad defensively but to just simply put that he won it all offensively is meaningless because its their defense and offense that won the ring dirk had a workload on offense but his team mates played better defensively even if chandler wasnt there a washed out haywood played a big role as well.

he is trying to prove a point to simply put dirk over kg just because he plays defense :facepalm

[QUOTE=Black and White]:biggums: I think that just kills all your credibility in this arguement[/QUOTE]
No offense but you can't read. Refute what is written in the next line. Back yourself up rather than these horrible one liners that prove you didn't even read the next line.

You simply can't say Dirk scores like the other top scorers do. He doesn't lead the league in scoring, he doesn't get 27ppg, he doesn't get in the top three of scoring. But he has been getting more timely baskets and that's his claim to fame - along with playoff scoring. Both of which I showed that Terry has done.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]No offense but you can't read. Refute what is written in the next line. Back yourself up rather than these horrible one liners that prove you didn't even read the next line.

You simply can't say Dirk scores like the other top scorers do. He doesn't lead the league in scoring, he doesn't get 27ppg, he doesn't get in the top three of scoring. But he has been getting more timely baskets and that's his claim to fame - along with playoff scoring. Both of which I showed that Terry has done.[/QUOTE]

Tbh i think youe being a little narrow minded when it comes to Dirk if you think that all he does is make timely baskets, he does much more than that, he is a floor leader, he can create shots (something the great scorers do), has one of the best midrange games, he was the driving force behind the whole mavs unit,

But to your credit the whole team did step up tho, but they wouldn't have been able to get it done if they didn't have Dirk perform the way he did.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Dirk averaged 26 ppg in the finals. Thats not enough to say his offense was great. It simply isn't. When you consider that the team he faced had a guy average 9 more ppg before his prime do it. And another guy that would go on to average 3 more ppg than that the next year. Almost every year you mentioned that had a great scorer, someone scored more than 26ppg. It was very good but definitely not enough to claim it was worth more than the defense.

If Dirk's offense won the series then he simply outscores Wade and he didn't even accomplish that. To say his offense was as much as the Dallas defense doesn't make sense.[/QUOTE]

Because he does way more than just score. He spaces the floor and runs an elite pick and roll game. He also rebounds (10 per game in the finals) and defends a lot better than you give him credit for...as I have now showed factually...and just the eye test as well.

But again...who cares what you think? You think Terry was better than peak Gasol. Which is laughable even more for you because you value all around play. Terry is a poor playmaker, rebounder, and defender...he does nothing well but score...and even his scoring is below average for a championship 2nd option.

You fail...and fail miserably

Truth.com

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Because he does way more than just score. He spaces the floor and runs an elite pick and roll game. He also rebounds (10 per game in the finals) and defends a lot better than you give him credit for...as I have now showed factually...and just the eye test as well.

But again...who cares what you think? You think Terry was better than peak Gasol. Which is laughable even more for you because you value all around play. Terry is a poor playmaker, rebounder, and defender...he does nothing well but score...and even his scoring is below average for a championship 2nd option.

You fail...and fail miserably

Truth.com[/QUOTE]

Another guy that denies what the stats are saying and you should believe him cause he "says so".

[QUOTE=Black and White]Tbh i think youe being a little narrow minded when it comes to Dirk if you think that all he does is make timely baskets, he does much more than that, he is a floor leader, [/quote]
In what way? Jason Kidd is the main floor leader.
[quote]
he can create shots (something the great scorers do),
[/quote]
For himself??? for others??? He doesn't dribble much and isn't a great creator like the other great scorers. Maybe you can explain how its different for Jason Terry?
[quote]
has one of the best midrange games, he was the driving force behind the whole mavs unit, [/quote]
The midrange game is indeed a great quality so I will give you that. But Terry's long range game was more accurate in the wins which I was obviously talking about.
[quote]
But to your credit the whole team did step up tho, but they wouldn't have been able to get it done if they didn't have Dirk perform the way he did.[/QUOTE] Since you obviously didn't read it.

Terry made more baskets and three pointers shooting 20 shots less in the last three games. In the last three games after the series was tied

Terry shot 25 for 43 a 58% clip for 22 ppg
Dirk shot. 24 for 64 a 37.5% clip for 25.6 ppg

That's only a 3.6 differential with a whopping 20% point difference in percentage!

In the four finals wins:
30/54 555% for Terry
34/86 395% for Dirk

Dirk took 32 more shots to get 4 more baskets.

When Terry plays bad they lost both games. When Dirk plays bad they still won. When Terry plays well they win. When Dirk was most productive scoring wise they lost. They won 3 of 4 games when Terry took more than 12 shots - as he was the most efficient shooter on Dallas.

Yet Dirk's offense is suppose to mean more than the defense? You two are waaaaay off base. Dirk wasn't their most consistent scorer or their most efficient scorer when they won.