Dunking Data For 1988-1993: MJ is the Goat In-Game Dunker for Wing Players

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[SIZE="3"][B]the first two posters below were [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSuLMxHw4s0][u]back-to-back plays[/u][/url][/B].
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[u][b]Links[/b]:[/u]

[url=http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40414797#p40414797][u]Top 15 MJ Dunks Over Multiple Contesting Defenders[/u][/url]

[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10508118&postcount=237][u]Random Posters 1[/u][/url]

[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10513143&postcount=256][u]Random Posters 2[/u][/url]

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[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10441991&postcount=40][u]Various Two-Handed Posters Over Defenders (two-foot takeoffs)[/u][/url]

[url=http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40382395#p40382395][u]Partial Collection of MJ Dunks Over All-Time Great Centers[/u][/url]

[url=http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40750321#p40750321][u]Top 15 Hanging Jumpshots by MJ[/u][/url]

[quote=3ball]Don't have the 1992 season... I think Fpliii has it and posted the data previously.

[B][U]Plus-Minus Data for Sixers Players[/U][/B]

1988.. [URL="http://tinypic.com/r/143qmom/8"]http://tinypic.com/r/143qmom/8[/URL]
1989.. [URL="http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2mnoy76&s=8#.VAi_6vldX2U"]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2mnoy76&s=8#.VAi_6vldX2U[/URL]
1990.. [URL="http://tinypic.com/r/v7xts6/8"]http://tinypic.com/r/v7xts6/8[/URL]
1991.. [URL="http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=hx838g&s=8#.VAjAVfldX2U"]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=hx838g&s=8#.VAjAVfldX2U[/URL]
1993.. [URL="http://tinypic.com/r/346u6ih/8"]http://tinypic.com/r/346u6ih/8[/URL][/quote]

:cheers:

[QUOTE=fpliii]

I just think that this is amazing new information we have, and we need to be very thorough in doing our due-diligence here.

[/QUOTE]
Any theories about the data?

[QUOTE=fpliii]

Something that might be interesting is maybe comparing players' dunks by positions, and seeing if over time, there were big changes in wings vs bigs, etc.

[/QUOTE]
I did this to a minor extent itt and found that the number of wing players with over 100 dunks has remained steady over eras... It's not much insight, but it's something - it supports the notion that each era's top wing dunkers are pretty comparable.

I also made a few position-comparison threads, in part to evaluate how the changing mix of players at a given position could affect dunking - [I]the format of the comparisons is to list the players for one of the eras, and then the other era must match them player-for-player - this way, it is easy to see if one era can't keep up.[/I]

Here are the final lists comparing [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10524574&postcount=25][u]1990 SF's to 2014 SF's[/u][/url].... [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10521405&postcount=1][u]1990 SG's to 2014 SG's[/u][/url].... [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10528351&postcount=1][u]1997 PG's to 2014 PG's[/u][/url].
.

[QUOTE=3ball]Any theories about the data?[QUOTE]
I don't have any new theories, but I never really had any in the first place. :confusedshrug: I just mentioned all the possibilities.

I've said numerous times that I think MJ is a better dunker than LeBron.

[QUOTE]I did this to a minor extent itt and found that the number of wing players with over 100 dunks has remained steady over eras... It's not much insight, but it's something - it supports the notion that each era's top wing dunkers are pretty comparable.[/QUOTE]
Interesting note...turns out the Philly Media Guides actually have dunks by Sixers players going back further, so we should have more data on Barkley and Dr. J.

I expect Erving to have more dunks than LeBron, but fewer than MJ.

[QUOTE]I also made a few position-comparison threads, in part to evaluate how the changing mix of players at a given position could affect dunking - [I]the format of the comparisons is to list the players for one of the eras, and then the other era must match them player-for-player - this way, it is easy to see if one era can't keep up.[/I]

Here are the final lists comparing [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10524574&postcount=25][u]1990 SF's to 2014 SF's[/u][/url].... [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10521405&postcount=1][u]1990 SG's to 2014 SG's[/u][/url].... [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10528351&postcount=1][u]1997 PG's to 2014 PG's[/u][/url].
.[/QUOTE]
I skimmed those a bit, a couple comments though:

Why are you using PER as a cutoff? It really severely undervalues great defensive players, since only blocks and steals are in the formula on that end (and so little of defense is recorded in the box score). Why not just look at all guys who started most of their teams' games at those positions?

Also, I think picking one year is maybe not the best idea. Rather, something like looking at the best PG/SG/SF over a five year period might be better.

:cheers:

[QUOTE=fpliii][QUOTE=3ball]Any theories about the data?[QUOTE]
I don't have any new theories, but I never really had any in the first place. :confusedshrug: I just mentioned all the possibilities.

I've said numerous times that I think MJ is a better dunker than LeBron.


Interesting note...turns out the Philly Media Guides actually have dunks by Sixers players going back further, so we should have more data on Barkley and Dr. J.

I expect Erving to have more dunks than LeBron, but fewer than MJ.


I skimmed those a bit, a couple comments though:

Why are you using PER as a cutoff? It really severely undervalues great defensive players, since only blocks and steals are in the formula on that end (and so little of defense is recorded in the box score). Why not just look at all guys who started most of their teams' games at those positions?

Also, I think picking one year is maybe not the best idea. Rather, something like looking at the best PG/SG/SF over a five year period might be better.

:cheers:[/QUOTE]
I think Erving will have a lot less dunks than Lebron because Lebron plays with the spacing, which is more conducive for a run-up and one-legged takeoffs, which Dr. J was great at like Lebron.

But I could easily be wrong... Relatively speaking, I haven't seen much Dr. J at all now that I think of it.

I used PER because it takes to long to do all the players at a given position.... and if the list was going to be pared down, using a PER cut-off was as good a method as any.

I agree... 5-year periods would be way better... don't have time for that though... however, the one year comparisons provide an accurate snapshot of one year versus another, which is still useful in gauging one year versus another.

[QUOTE=3ball][QUOTE=fpliii][QUOTE=3ball]Any theories about the data?
I think Erving will have a lot less dunks than Lebron because Lebron plays with the spacing, which is more conducive for a run-up and one-legged takeoffs, which Dr. J was great at like Lebron.

But I could easily be wrong... Relatively speaking, I haven't seen much Dr. J at all now that I think of it.

I used PER because it takes to long to do all the players at a given position.... and if the list was going to be pared down, using a PER cut-off was as good a method as any.

I agree... 5-year periods would be way better... don't have time for that though... however, the one year comparisons provide an accurate snapshot of one year versus another, which is still useful in gauging one year versus another.[/QUOTE]
Spacing or not, from the tape Dr. J seems to be the better and more prolific dunker than LeBron. I guess you could be right, but I feel like Erving will likely have more dunks.

I didn't watch much of Dr. J either (started watching in 92-93, and the only games I've really watched before then are ECF/WCF/Finals on tape/youtube), but he was incredible at getting to the basket. Not as good as MJ or a Barkley say, but he seemed to get there effortlessly.

Guides arrived!

94-95: [url]http://i58.tinypic.com/316rspc.jpg[/url]
95-96: [url]http://i57.tinypic.com/j82vl1.jpg[/url]

[QUOTE=fpliii]Guides arrived!

94-95: [url]http://i58.tinypic.com/316rspc.jpg[/url]
95-96: [url]http://i57.tinypic.com/j82vl1.jpg[/url][/QUOTE]
That's right... post it here so someone that has a clue can actually make sense of the numbers... make up a little bit for you wasting people's time

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[SIZE="4"][B]SG's and SF's with 1 or more seasons of 100+ Dunks[/B]
[/SIZE]

[U]1988 - 1996[/U][COLOR="White"]......................[/COLOR][U]2001 - 2014[/U]

Michael Jordan.................. Kevin Durant
Dominique Wilkins............. Lebron James
Clyde Drexler.................... Dwayne Wade
Scottie Pippen................... Carmelo Anthony
Penny Hardaway................ Kobe Bryant
Grant Hill.......................... Tracy McGrady
Ron Harper ...................... Andre Iguodala
Richard Dumas.................. Rudy Gay
Stacy Augmon................... Shawn Marion
Michael Finley.................... Richard Jefferson
Jerry Stackhouse
Cedric Ceballos
[B][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="2"]Derrick McKey[/B] (All-NBA Defender)[/SIZE][/COLOR]
Roy Hinson
Chris Morris

[i][B]Sources[/B]: Dunk data for 2001-2014 is from basketball-reference.com; 1988-1996 dunk data was retrieved from Philadelpia 76'er Media Guides and Harvey Pollack's Statistical Guides, links for which are in this thread's OP: [url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352399[/url][/i]
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[QUOTE=3ball][SIZE="3"]Multi-Yr Comparison: 1988-1996 = 2001-2014 [I]Athlete for Athlete, Player for Player[/I].[/SIZE]


[B]SG's and SF's with 100+ Dunks in a Season[/B]


[U]1988 - 1996[/U][COLOR="White"]......................[/COLOR][U]2001 - 2014[/U]

Michael Jordan.................. Kevin Durant
Dominique Wilkins............. Lebron James
Clyde Drexler.................... Dwayne Wade
Scottie Pippen................... Carmelo Anthony
Penny Hardaway................ Kobe Bryant
Grant Hill.......................... Tracy McGrady
Ron Harper ...................... Andre Iguodala
Richard Dumas.................. Rudy Gay
Stacy Augmon................... Shawn Marion
Michael Finley.................... Richard Jefferson
Derrick McKey
Jerry Stackhouse
Cedric Ceballos
Roy Hinson
Chris Morris


I'm looking hard and cannot find where 2001-2014 has any advantage at all.[/QUOTE]

:oldlol: :oldlol: You're telling me VINCE CARTER isn't on this list? We want hard data and sources...

and stop posting gifs of MJ traveling like this:

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/1b4e16f6ea41edb27cbb7c901e4fa5e1.gif[/IMG]

Dude moves his feet 50 times before dropping the dribble.

[QUOTE=fpliii]Guides arrived!

94-95: [url]http://i58.tinypic.com/316rspc.jpg[/url]
95-96: [url]http://i57.tinypic.com/j82vl1.jpg[/url][/QUOTE]

Ha, I knew 95 would be Pippens peak for dunks in a season. He was smashing it over everybody that season

[QUOTE=Hoopz2332]Example below:oldlol:


[b]Lebron James With The And1 Breakaway Dunk[/b]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI1mAMTh4Pw&hd=1[/url]

straight trucked:lol[/QUOTE]

weak :banana:

[QUOTE=sball]

[SIZE="3"]Multi-Yr Comparison: 1988-1996 = 2001-2014 [I]Athlete for Athlete, Player for Player[/I].[/SIZE]


[B]SG's and SF's with 100+ Dunks in a Season[/B]


[U]1988 - 1996[/U][COLOR="White"]......................[/COLOR][U]2001 - 2014[/U]

Michael Jordan.................. Kevin Durant
Dominique Wilkins............. Lebron James
Clyde Drexler.................... Dwayne Wade
Scottie Pippen................... Carmelo Anthony
Penny Hardaway................ Kobe Bryant
Grant Hill.......................... Tracy McGrady
Ron Harper ...................... Andre Iguodala
Richard Dumas.................. Rudy Gay
Stacy Augmon................... Shawn Marion
Michael Finley.................... Richard Jefferson
Derrick McKey
Jerry Stackhouse
Cedric Ceballos
Roy Hinson
Chris Morris

[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=eliteballer]

:oldlol: :oldlol: You're telling me VINCE CARTER isn't on this list? We want hard data and sources...

[/QUOTE]
One thing you have to remember, is that everyone on that list has 3 qualities:

1) quickness overall and quickness going to the hole
2) quickness off their feet - they get up high AND quickly
3) high offensive skill level

So for anyone that you wonder why they aren't on the list, see if they fulfill all of the above requirements.

The only quality that a couple of the guys on the list don't possess is #3, a high offensive skill level (Shawn Marion, Stacy Augmon, and maybe Iguodala and Roy Hinson).
.

3ball - Here's all of the data from the 77-78 through 87-88 Sixers guides (+/- and dunks):

[url]http://www50.zippyshare.com/v/90023599/file.html[/url]

Apologies for the glare (would've scanned, but I didn't want to ruin the spine of these books), I included a text file with clarifications.

[QUOTE=fpliii]3ball - Here's all of the data from the 77-78 through 87-88 Sixers guides (+/- and dunks):

[url]http://www50.zippyshare.com/v/90023599/file.html[/url]

Apologies for the glare (would've scanned, but I didn't want to ruin the spine of these books), I included a text file with clarifications.[/QUOTE]

[B]:cheers: Great stuff man :applause:

Erving and Dawkins :bowdown: Must've been hard to protect the rim against those two (when Darryl wasn't breaking them, lmfao). Erving still with 118 dunks in 1986, when he was 36, what a freak of nature.
Then you also got the likes of Bobby Jones, World B Free and Caldwell Jones, plus some really quick little guys like Cheeks or Toney... some of the most athletic teams ever, if not the most at some point.
Afterwards, Barkley came along, killing it.

Free with 41 dunks in 1978 and 50 in 1979, nice! This was only a 6'2 player but, reportedly, with a 44'' vertical... Shame that there's only few footage of him dunking out there, and the most stuff you got from him not in his younger days.

In the late 70's, Gilmore was always #1 in terms of opponents' dunks, Bobby Jones amongst the top too, before he joined them.

Loved how they've included "Last Year's Fights", then you got a whole bunch of them :lol [/B]