damn, didnt know the skills were that bad back then.. so many shots not even close to going in.. :rolleyes:
if only i was born in that era, with the skills i have now, id be HOF..
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damn, didnt know the skills were that bad back then.. so many shots not even close to going in.. :rolleyes:
if only i was born in that era, with the skills i have now, id be HOF..
[QUOTE=A.M.G.]And the game itself has changed so much, athleticism and size are so much more significant nowadays. A 6'2 white SG being a star nowadays, not happening. The standard height for every position has gone up, Centers used to be like 6'8 now they have to be like 6'11, PFs used to be like 6'6-6'7 now they're all 6'9+ etc, etc, the players are stronger, faster, heavier, and more athletic overall, the way the game is played reflects that.[/QUOTE]
The average height for the players is smaller this year than it was at anytime before the early 80s. The players are a little heavier and more athletic but other than that there isn't much difference in size.
[QUOTE=A.M.G.]Bill Russell would not be anything special nowadays, seriously. Maybe a star, but not the dominant defensive force he was.
And as for Dirk and Nash, yeah, there are a very few white stars, but not even close to what there was back pre-70's.[/quote]
Why wouldn't Russel be a dominant defensive player? Shane Battier, Bruce Bowen and Tim Duncan aren't great athletes but there great on D. His instincts and length would still be there. I see no reason why he wouldn't be a great defensive player.
[QUOTE=A.M.G.]Hey, I believe you. I just assumed that since blacks had only just gotten civil rights and such that there was still a long ways to go in terms of african-americans having basketball facilities for their schools and such. I wasn't trolling, I believe you that it was a majority aa league.
But, don't you think that the ports infrastructure for young african-americans has improved just a tad since then? Especially since the black kids in the south could now go to previously "white" schools and enjoy the benefits of better facilities, training, and coaches?
[B]Big misconception that the "white Schools" had better coaches its still a false myth even today. [/B]
And the game itself has changed so much, athleticism and size are so much more significant nowadays. A 6'2 white SG being a star nowadays, not happening. The standard height for every position has gone up, Centers used to be like 6'8 now they have to be like 6'11, PFs used to be like 6'6-6'7 now they're all 6'9+ etc, etc, the players are stronger, faster, heavier, and more athletic overall, the way the game is played reflects that.
Bill Russell would not be anything special nowadays, seriously. Maybe a star, but not the dominant defensive force he was.
And as for Dirk and Nash, yeah, there are a very few white stars, but not even close to what there was back pre-70's.[/QUOTE]
many of the players are bigger but just in height you have 6'11 and taller players shooting 3pt which would be caused for a good benching in the 60's-70's Players like unseld and Reed although much shorter than a player like a yao would push him so far out of the paint he would be a nonfactor on the offensive boards. What many of the young guys that havent taken the time to understand the game is that the reason you dont see a lot of high flying dunks back in the 60's and 70's is because a player would have gotten put on his butt and the refs might not have called it. When I see players like pau Gasol getting buckets I just shake my head he would have gotten punked so bad b the real Centers of the NBA
[QUOTE]And the game itself has changed so much, athleticism and size are so much more significant nowadays. A 6'2 white SG being a star nowadays, not happening.[/QUOTE]
Iverson may not be black, but he's 5'11. It might be hard, but not impossible. After all, no other SG produced as much as West in West's own era. So, since only West did it, this must mean that it wasn't easy to dominate as a 6'2 white SG in his era, either. And this, among others, makes West special. He beat odds of his own era.
[QUOTE] The standard height for every position has gone up, Centers used to be like 6'8 now they have to be like 6'11, PFs used to be like 6'6-6'7 now they're all 6'9+ etc, etc, the players are stronger, faster, heavier, and more athletic overall, the way the game is played reflects that.[/QUOTE]
At least when it comes to the 60's-70's, wrong about the heights. From each position you listed.
Players are heavier and more athletic, but that's nothing that technology advances can't explain. Especially the weight difference isn't anywhere near as dramatic as depicted: In 2000, the average weight was 225 lb. In 1960? 206? In 1965, it was 213, which was 1 lb more than the average weight in [B]1985[/B].
[QUOTE]Bill Russell would not be anything special nowadays, seriously. Maybe a star, but not the dominant defensive force he was.[/QUOTE]
And this is why, exactly? What did Russell lack defensively that all modern great defenders have?
All this bickering, throwing stats around, heights etc, JUST WATCH THE DAMN VIDEO, ANYONE THAT CANT TELL HOW LOUSY THE STANDARD WAS BACK THEN BY WATCHING NO MORE THAN 2 MINUTES OF THE FOOTAGE NEEDS TO DELETE THEIR ACCOUNT.That standard is worse than current college ball, Adam Morrison and JJ Reddick were stars in current college ball, so anyone who thinks players from 60's NBA would translate to todays NBA needs to reconsider.
[QUOTE=A.M.G.]Hey, I believe you. I just assumed that since blacks had only just gotten civil rights and such that there was still a long ways to go in terms of african-americans having basketball facilities for their schools and such. I wasn't trolling, I believe you that it was a majority aa league.
[/QUOTE]
the old NBL had black players 5 years before Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier in baseball (1942). The Lakers, Hawks, 76ers, Kings and Pistons came from that L.
Actually, going back and reading through the histories of the various pro basketball leagues is quite interesting.
[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Basketball_League_(United_States)"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Basketball_League_(United_States)[/URL]
[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basketball_Association_of_America"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basketball_Association_of_America[/URL]
[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Basketball_League_(1961-1963)"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Basketball_League_(1961-1963)[/URL]
[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Basketball_Association"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Basketball_Association[/URL]
I mean, who knew the first black pro basketball head coach was hired by George Steinbrenner of all people?
[QUOTE=Psileas]Iverson may not be black, but he's 5'11. It might be hard, but not impossible. After all, no other SG produced as much as West in West's own era. So, since only West did it, this must mean that it wasn't easy to dominate as a 6'2 white SG in his era, either. And this, among others, makes West special. He beat odds of his own era.
At least when it comes to the 60's-70's, wrong about the heights. From each position you listed.
Players are heavier and more athletic, but that's nothing that technology advances can't explain. Especially the weight difference isn't anywhere near as dramatic as depicted: In 2000, the average weight was 225 lb. In 1960? 206? In 1965, it was 213, which was 1 lb more than the average weight in [B]1985[/B].
And this is why, exactly? What did Russell lack defensively that all modern great defenders have?[/QUOTE]
Allen Iverson may not be black? That's surprising.
As for Bill Russell, I'm just saying he wouldn't be a DOMINANT defensive force LIKE HE WAS BACK THEN. The dude was 6'9 and didn't have much offensive game, so how good of a star big man could he be nowadays? He would be like a taller Ben Wallace, which would not lead you to 11 titles nowadays.
[QUOTE=A.M.G.]
And the game itself has changed so much, athleticism and size are so much more significant nowadays. A 6'2 white SG being a star nowadays, not happening. The standard height for every position has gone up, Centers used to be like 6'8 now they have to be like 6'11, PFs used to be like 6'6-6'7 now they're all 6'9+ etc, etc, the players are stronger, faster, heavier, and more athletic overall, the way the game is played reflects that.
Bill Russell would not be anything special nowadays, seriously. Maybe a star, but not the dominant defensive force he was.
And as for Dirk and Nash, yeah, there are a very few white stars, but not even close to what there was back pre-70's.[/QUOTE]
A 6'2" White SG couldn't be a star but a 5'11 165 lb Black SG can win 4 scoring titles and average 30PPG several times?
[IMG]http://www.cavsnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/AllenIverson.jpg[/IMG] Look at how athletic
People have grossly overrated the athleticism of today and it's impact on the game. If size/athleticism was the only prerequisite for success in the NBA, then guys like Jason Richardson and Josh Smith would be sure-fire hall of famers. Also, most players in this era don't even use their size correctly. Zydrunas Ilguaskas is what 7'6"? When was the last time you saw him in the post? The guy's purely a jump shooter and he isn't an anomally, he's the norm. Oversized, soft jump-shooting big men who want nothing to do with banging down low and playing tough... that's today's NBA.
And why on earth wouldn't Bill Russel be the same defensive force he was back then? I mean Ben Wallace (6'9" same height as Russell) had a string of seasons where he averaged 13+ RPG and 2-3 BPG.... playing CENTER. Some of the best defensive players in this decade are some of the more unathletic players in the game- Tim Duncan, Bruce Bowen, Shane Battier, etc.
In summary, SKILL>>>>>>>ATHLETICISM
[QUOTE=db23]All this bickering, throwing stats around, heights etc, JUST WATCH THE DAMN VIDEO, ANYONE THAT CANT TELL HOW LOUSY THE STANDARD WAS BACK THEN BY WATCHING NO MORE THAN 2 MINUTES OF THE FOOTAGE NEEDS TO DELETE THEIR ACCOUNT.That standard is worse than current college ball, Adam Morrison and JJ Reddick were stars in current college ball, so anyone who thinks players from 60's NBA would translate to todays NBA needs to reconsider.[/QUOTE]
This is why you dont get it. 2 min of clips the C postion today is so weak that a BUM like Kwame Brown still has a job Chris Kaman gets a new improved contract and a soft weak pau Gasol is the 2nd option on a title contending team.Im sure Wilt would have problems defending the great Tyson Chandler and Andrew Bynum.
[QUOTE=Psileas]32jazz, you're correct. But, you see, some people choose to believe things that they saw nowhere, read nowhere (they hardly read at all, after all), never proved, but, because they weren't alive in that era, they found a good excuse to imply that they didn't miss anything serious. Some of them may believe that in 1950's you were considered a super athlete if you had a 20-inch vertical and that today's WNBA players would make a 60's roster. There's nothing to respond to these people without being in danger of having your IQ dropped by a lot.
And yes, you're also correct about the Celtics:
[url]http://images.google.gr/imgres?imgurl=http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nba/boston/1986Celtics.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nba/boston/celticschamps.html&usg=__w-PDcnkvW43Md9CohqGgj4xOwmM=&h=225&w=375&sz=23&hl=el&start=2&um=1&tbnid=oivaNCbvfMEjMM:&tbnh=73&tbnw=122&prev=/images%3Fq%3D1986%2Bceltics%26hl%3Del%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1[/url]
Lol, only the '57 and '60 Celtics were whiter than the '86 Celtics.[/QUOTE]
I know. I know.
But some kid who is serious unlike those trolling for a reaction may read this & I thought they should have a few facts.
Psileas. How bout those 'unathletic White' '86 Celtics who swept MJ & the Bulls in the playoffs & are generally considered one of THE greatest teams of all time ;at least top 3 or top 5 alltime.(Where are the 86 CeltIcs generally ranked? not rhetorical)
The '86 Celtics only had four(4) Black guys on the entire roster & only two(2) contributors(DJ & Parish were starters) while Sam Vincent & Sly Williams(nicknamed 'the garbage man':oldlol: ) were both doing cleanup duty with less than 10 MPG. This the golden age of the NBA.
Wes Unseld & Elvin Hayes (1960's holdovers) were still dominate way past their prime in the 1980's.
The average startng Center in '68(Wilt's prime) was 6'10
The average Center today is roughly 6'10 (not withstanding the inflated heights attributed to them)
Sixties era HOF Centers
I was gonna talk about HOF centers Walt Bellamy, Nate Thurmond, Willis Reed & other 7 footers like Walter Dukes etc..but it seems to be such a waste. Don't you think?
Where do rank the 'unathletic White' Celtics of 86?
[QUOTE=A.M.G.]Allen Iverson may not be black? That's surprising.
As for Bill Russell, I'm just saying he wouldn't be a DOMINANT defensive force LIKE HE WAS BACK THEN. The dude was 6'9 and didn't have much offensive game, so how good of a star big man could he be nowadays? He would be like a taller Ben Wallace, which would not lead you to 11 titles nowadays.[/QUOTE]
Well a offensive liability like Ben which Russ wasnt helped lead a team to 1 title and they should have won at least 1 more. If Bill played today he would still be the great C what would stop him from winning 11 rings would be the salary cap and free agency not his skill.
Let's be honest here, all you people trying to take away from past legends... if guys like Tim Duncan, Allen Iverson, Dirk Nowitzki, Steve Nash, Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett, Kevin Durant (and every other skinny, white, unathletic, etc player who have DOMINATED this era/decade) had played anywhere from the 60s-90s, you'd be doing the same thing you're trying to do to Wilt, Russell, etc.
"Tim Duncan was so slow and couldn't jump, he'd be a backup at best in today's league"
"Yeah Iverson scored a lot in his era but he was only 5'11 165 lbs!!! he wouldn't even be a D-3 player today, he's too small to even play PG, how would he play SG against all the athletic freaks out there today?!"
"Dirk and Nash were slow, unathletic white players who dominated before the league was majority black. They'd get dominated in today's league"
See where I'm getting at? Show some ****ing respect.
[QUOTE=Scott Pippen]You don't think this may have anything at all do with how they measured players then (without shoes) vs now (+ the exaggerated heights) and sometimes apparently not even updating their college measurements/weights back then.[/QUOTE]
:applause:
The only positon that has had any sigificant change in heigths are the 2 guard/off guard/SG ,but otherwise the players today are no taller than those of 68(Wilt's peak when he even led the leagus in assists:eek: over Big O ,Earl 'The Pearl Monroe, Walt Frazier, Jerry West, Leny Wilkens. All HOF guards)
The average staring Ceneter was roughly 6'10 then('68)
The average Center is rougly 6'10 today (even with exagerrated heights & the circus freaks they put into the league today)
[QUOTE]Allen Iverson may not be black? That's surprising.[/QUOTE]
Scratch "not". I wanted to write "not white" but forgot to erase the "not".
[QUOTE]As for Bill Russell, I'm just saying he wouldn't be a DOMINANT defensive force LIKE HE WAS BACK THEN. The dude was 6'9 and didn't have much offensive game, so how good of a star big man could he be nowadays? He would be like a taller Ben Wallace, which would not lead you to 11 titles nowadays.[/QUOTE]
First of all, if Russell played nowadays, this means that he wouldn't have existed back then and therefore, the NBA's 70's defensive stars would not be inspired by him, which would mean they would become less advanced than they actually were, Hakeem/Ewing and the others would in their turn also have the same fate and so on.
Second, yes, I know that Russell was 6'9 (6'9 1/2, to be exact, which is just a small notch below the average center height today).
Now, you mention offense and Ben Wallace. First of all, Wallace can't see Russell when it comes to passing and fast-break opening. Russell averaged more than 4 assists throughout his career and there were seasons when he'd average more than many starting PG's. He would at times grab a rebound, dribble down the court and pass to the open teammate. Wallace only once surpassed even 2 apg. Second, Wallace can't be told to score when needed. Russell wasn't a good shooter and a natural scorer, but, when told to, he could easily drop 20-30 points, even against Chamberlain. Wallace? Forget 30 points, how many times did he even get 20 points in a playoff game? 3 is the correct answer. Defense? Much closer, but you see that their overall impact just isn't the same.
[QUOTE]Psileas. How bout those 'unathletic White' '86 Celtics who swept MJ & the Bulls in the playoffs & are generally considered one of THE greatest teams of all time ;at least top 3 or top 5 alltime.(Where are the 86 CeltIcs generally ranked? not rhetorical)
The '86 Celtics only had four(4) Black guys on the entire roster & only two(2) contributors(DJ & Parish were starters) while Sam Vincent & Sly Williams(nicknamed 'the garbage man' ) were both doing cleanup duty with less than 10 MPG. This the golden age of the NBA.[/QUOTE]
Did Sly Williams even finish the season with the team? I think they waived him in midseason, because he was too problematic a character and guys like Auerbach couldn't stand such liabilities.
[QUOTE]Where do rank the 'unathletic White' Celtics of 86?[/QUOTE]
Top-5, like just about everyone does. I'm not sure where exactly, but it doesn't really matter, because any top-5 team ever could beat anyone and anywhere, including the 1-4 teams that may be ranked above them.