Felton vs. Norman (The Chamberlain\Russell Thread)

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]I disagree, Shaq and Wilt are right there with eachother in my opinion. I alternate them all the time, I can't really decide between them.[/QUOTE]
Yeah it's definitely still close. You're a smart poster, most of what you say is right. But there are small things that make the separation line clear.
[QUOTE=G.O.A.T.]
Russell is the Greatest center ever and to me it's not debatable. That said, I can see the arguments for others, but I've yet to hear anyone on here make anything close to a valid argument.[/QUOTE]

Please tell me he did not just say that. I haven't seen any close to valid argument for Russell over Wilt.

[QUOTE=GP_20]
Please tell me he did not just say that. I haven't seen any close to valid argument for Russell over Wilt.[/QUOTE]

That's because you're an idiot though. Also stay out of my threads at all times, if I can't have you on ignore you owe me that as a moderator, even if it is of a different forum.

I don't ever want to hear your opinions on anything; don't ever respond to me, the previous post and all after will be reported.

[QUOTE=MMKM]A little off topic but an interesting little factoid;

I've heard people say 1000 times that Wilt dominated because there were no other tall centers in the league back then (aside from Russell), basically saying he was a giant for his time. I did a little research and in Wilt's era the average height for a center was 6'11. Last season the average height was 6'10. It turns out human beings haven't evolved a whole lot in 50 years despite people's misconceptions.
:hammerhead:[/QUOTE]

Great point about height, a common misconception, it's was Wilt's athleticism that separated him much more than his 2 or 3 inch height advantage he usually had.

The evolution is more in terms of explosiveness. Athletes today are more explosive because of the training, supplementation and nutritional advances. Also the style taught and portrayed is a more athletic one.

Can we get a merger here...

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIc73FUXVF0"]Bill Russell against Wilt Chamberlain[/URL]

[QUOTE=Abraham Lincoln][URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIc73FUXVF0"]Bill Russell against Wilt Chamberlain[/URL][/QUOTE]

THE greatest rivalry in Sports HISTORY!!!!!!

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]I'd love to hear a valid argument for Russell over Kareem or Shaq other than 11 rings.[/QUOTE]


There isn't one honestly. BUT as we all know with championships(no matter how good you are as an individual) people begin to view you differently. Just like JOE DUMARS being a 1st/2nd ballot HOF'er ,but ;Adrian Dantley waiting nearly two decades, Gilmore still not in:mad: ,etc....( Just imagine Gilmore playing with Magic & winning titles in the 80's. He would have been no doubt a first ballot HOF'er)

One commentator pointed this out after the Pistons beat the Lakers in '04. There is no way in hell that 4 time DPOY was better than Shaq individually(just as Wilt>Russell) ,but his TEAM won. Just imagine if Wallace & the Pistons won 4 or 5 titles during their impressive run(6 straight ECF ?/2 NBA finals/1 championship). Would people suggest their defensive anchor/heart & soul was the best Center in the League?

I AM NOT SAYING WALLACE is as good as Russell just making an analogy.

I must admit that Russell won every place he went & revolutionized defensive strategy. Although someone said they went from Champions to NO PLAYOFFS the year immediately after Russell retired they forget that the great Sam Jones retired also.

[QUOTE=32jazz]There isn't one honestly. BUT as we all know with championships(no matter how good you are as an individual) people begin to view you differently. Just like JOE DUMARS being a 1st/2nd ballot HOF'er ,but ;Adrian Dantley waiting nearly two decades, Gilmore still not in:mad: ,etc....( Just imagine Gilmore playing with Magic & winning titles in the 80's. He would have been no doubt a first ballot HOF'er)

One commentator pointed this out after the Pistons beat the Lakers in '04. There is no way in hell that 4 time DPOY was better than Shaq individually(just as Wilt>Russell) ,but his TEAM won. Just imagine if Wallace & the Pistons won 4 or 5 titles during their impressive run(6 straight ECF ?/2 NBA finals/1 championship). Would people suggest their defensive anchor/heart & soul was the best Center in the League?

I AM NOT SAYING WALLACE is as good as Russell just making an analogy.

I must admit that Russell won every place he went & revolutionized defensive strategy. Although someone said they went from Champions to NO PLAYOFFS the year immediately after Russell retired they forget that the great Sam Jones retired also.[/QUOTE]

Very valid points. One-on-one, Wilt probably would have destroyed Russell. BUT, basketball is 5x5. Quite often it comes down to the best chemistry. I honestly believe that Shaq, Kareem, and Wilt would make lousy teams better than Duncan or Russell. However, players like Russell or Duncan make good teams better than what those three would have.

Even Wilt, himself, said that Russell blended better with his Celtic teammates, than he (Wilt) would have.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]Great point about height, a common misconception, it's was Wilt's athleticism that separated him much more than his 2 or 3 inch height advantage he usually had.

The evolution is more in terms of explosiveness. Athletes today are more explosive because of the training, supplementation and nutritional advances. Also the style taught and portrayed is a more athletic one.[/QUOTE]

People fail to realize that Magic Johnson had a far greater size advantage at the overall guard postion in the 80's than Wilt ever had at Center(MJ/Drexler as well).

Also the SG position was very different in the 80's OVERALL & was not as EXPLOSIVE with shorter(6'3/4 or shorter) jump shooting specialist like Ainge, Andrew Toney,Byron Scott, Joe Dumars, A. Robertson(great defender),Sleepy Floyd,World B Free, Moncrief, Fat Lever,etc... & even taller Jump shooters like Dale Ellis,Reggie Miller,etc....

Magic/MJ/Drexler feasted on these guys & they(Magic more than anyone else) revolutionized the guard positon.

I see no one dismissing their (Magic/MJ/Drexler)accomplishments like some do Wilt & he had less of a size advantage at Center than they overall at Guard.

I don't understand why 11 rings isn't enough of an argument...

No one else in te history of North American pro sports has done anything like it.

They never won before him, won 11 out of 13 when he was there and became one of the leagues worst teams the second he retired.

He was the one constant on those teams and is universally credited as the most important factor in the dynasty.

His teams were good, but in no way dominant. They went to a seventh game more than 10 times and never lost when Russell was healthy.

etc etc etc.

you all have heard this, I guess I just don't think you appreciate how significant it is.

[QUOTE=32jazz]People fail to realize that Magic Johnson had a far greater size advantage at the overall guard postion in the 80's than Wilt ever had at Center(MJ/Drexler as well).

Also the SG position was very different in the 80's OVERALL & was not as EXPLOSIVE with shorter(6'3/4 or shorter) jump shooting specialist like Ainge, Andrew Toney,Byron Scott, Joe Dumars, A. Robertson(great defender),Sleepy Floyd,World B Free, Moncrief, Fat Lever,etc... & even taller Jump shooters like Dale Ellis,Reggie Miller,etc....

Magic/MJ/Drexler feasted on these guys & they(Magic more than anyone else) revolutionized the guard positon.

I see no one dismissing their (Magic/MJ/Drexler)accomplishments like some do Wilt & he had less of a size advantage at Center than they overall at Guard.[/QUOTE]

In Wilt's 61-62 season, the average height of a starting center in the NBA was 6-10. By 1970, it was 6-11. In 2009, it was 7-0. So, in 40-50 years, we have seen the average starting center grow a full two inches. Not only that, but take Wilt out of the equation, and how many 7-1+ centers have won a rebounding title? And how many seasons TOTAL?

7-2 Kareem won ONE rebounding title. 7-2 Motumbo won two. 7-1 David Robinson won ONE. 7-2 Gilmore won three in the ABA, but in two of those seasons, his average per game was less than the NBA leader (Wilt and Kareem.) That's it. A TOTAL of FIVE NBA seasons, in NBA HISTORY, in which a 7-1 player, aside from Wilt, has won a rebounding title.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]I don't understand why 11 rings isn't enough of an argument...

No one else in te history of North American pro sports has done anything like it.

They never won before him, won 11 out of 13 when he was there and became one of the leagues worst teams the second he retired.

He was the one constant on those teams and is universally credited as the most important factor in the dynasty.

His teams were good, but in no way dominant. They went to a seventh game more than 10 times and never lost when Russell was healthy.

etc etc etc.

[B]you all have heard this, I guess I just don't think you appreciate how significant it is[/B].[/QUOTE]

Hopefully more-and-more readers here WILL come to appreciate what Russell accomplished. NO ONE IMPACTED the TEAM game of basketball, more than Russell.

[QUOTE=jlauber]In Wilt's 61-62 season, the average height of a starting center in the NBA was 6-10. By 1970, it was 6-11. In 2009, it was 7-0. So, in 40-50 years, we have seen the average starting center grow a full two inches. Not only that, but take Wilt out of the equation, and how many 7-1+ centers have won a rebounding title? And how many seasons TOTAL?

7-2 Kareem won ONE rebounding title. 7-2 Motumbo won two. 7-1 David Robinson won ONE. 7-2 Gilmore won three in the ABA, but in two of those seasons, his average per game was less than the NBA leader (Wilt and Kareem.) That's it. A TOTAL of FIVE NBA seasons, in NBA HISTORY, in which a 7-1 player, aside from Wilt, has won a rebounding title.[/QUOTE]

Not only that Jlauber the heights from the 1960's/70's were far more accurate & not these 'fudged' heights today in an era obssesed with numbers/camps/combines.

Players lie so much about their heights today that there is serious confusion over their actual heights. The funniest/oddest one was Akeem Olajuwon who announced out of the blue in the 90's that his name was actually spelled Hakeem & he was 6'10 & not 7'0.:oldlol:

I did this average for '68(Wilt's best season), '78, '88,'98,'08 once & starting Centers were relatively the same height:confusedshrug: (especially adjusting for players/agents/colleges 'routinely' lying about a players height today).


I have always dismissed this notion that Wilt only won rebounding titles(11) because he was tall(7'1 legit) when in 60 years of NBA Basketball only 4 true 7 footers have actually won rebounding titles & only Wilt & Mutombo(4) multiple ones( Plus Gilmore in the ABA).

'Statistically speaking' The Dipper was at a disadvantage when it came to rebounds & assists as well , but he also led the League in assists.

[QUOTE=32jazz]Not only that Jlauber the heights from the 1960's/70's were far more accurate & not these 'fudged' heights today in an era obssesed with numbers/camps/combines.

Players lie so much about their heights today that there is serious confusion over their actual heights. The funniest/oddest one was Akeem Olajuwon who announced out of the blue in the 90's that his name was actually spelled Hakeem & he was 6'10 & not 7'0.:oldlol:

I did this average for '68(Wilt's best season), '78, '88,'98,'08 once & starting Centers were relatively the same height:confusedshrug: (especially adjusting for players/agents/colleges 'routinely' lying about a players height today).


I have always dismissed this notion that Wilt only won rebounding titles(11) because he was tall(7'1 legit) when in 60 years of NBA Basketball only 4 true 7 footers have actually won rebounding titles & only Wilt & Mutombo(4) multiple ones( Plus Gilmore in the ABA).

'Statistically speaking' The Dipper was at a disadvantage when it came to rebounds & assists as well , but he also led the League in assists.[/QUOTE]

I haven't been able to find the original quote, but I recall Kiki Van de Wege making the claim that Wilt, in his mid-40's, ABUSED 7-4 Mark Eaton in a summer league game in the mid-80's. Can you imagine what Wilt would have accomplished against the likes of 7-2 clods like Ostertag, Breuer, Longley, Neavitt, Bol, Muresan, and SO MANY others...NONE of whom would have made an NBA roster back in the 60's and 70's? Even players like Smits and Eaton would have no chance against Wilt's athleticism and power.

[QUOTE=jlauber]I haven't been able to find the original quote, but I recall Kiki Van de Wege making the claim that Wilt, in his mid-40's, ABUSED 7-4 Mark Eaton in a summer league game in the mid-80's. Can you imagine what Wilt would have accomplished against the likes of 7-2 clods like Ostertag, Breuer, Longley, Neavitt, Bol, Muresan, and SO MANY others...NONE of whom would have made an NBA roster back in the 60's and 70's? Even players like Smits and Eaton would have no chance against Wilt's athleticism and power.[/QUOTE]

Can't remmber off hand about that one(Eaton), but I'll do some research.
I do remember very well the story Larry Brown tells about the pick up games at UCLA with Magic in the early 80's.

Magic was crying about fouls & made a few layups & Wilt got pissed. Said" No more layups in this gym today' & there were no more lay ups as Wilt swatted/intimidated everything else & pretty much shut up Magic in his mid 40's.:eek:


Also read a story that he was offered the oppurtunity to return as a 'back up' Center in the early 80's by the Lakers & maybe the Cavs(?) wanted him. With the Lakers it was alleged he was offered the oppurtunity to play home games only in the regular season, but eventually rebuffed the offer(Wilt was VERY successful/well off finanacially & didn't want to be some publicity stunt).

I'll try to find that for you.