Shaq 96-2002 versus 87-93 Jordan

[QUOTE=madmax]Great great points Roundball...:applause: It's really amaizng how casual NBA fans don't realize the importance of dominant bigs and always fo for flash and flare of perimeter guards - I guess that's why His Airness also became most hyped and promoted NBA player of all time, Stern just couldn't resist of milking that name and making tons of money. Everyone seems to forget that he also needed great teammates and a GOAT coach to start winning. It's sad how people always choose flash over substance:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
You could say the same exact things for Shaq.

Bigs can't get the ball without solid guards.

Jordan could do it all. As a guard who had as much if not more dominance than Shaquille O'Neal.

And Jordan had a rookie Phil Jackson as coach. When Shaq got him he was on his way to GOAT pro coach. Huge difference there, wouldn't you say?

Jordan was still getting into ECF in the Playoffs, and not going down in sweeps without Phil Jackson. Once everyone picked up their weight on that team ... once Ho Grant became reliable, once Pippen manned up stopped with the idiotic mistakes / migraines / pu$$y attitude and took that next level step to a star player ... thats what put the Bulls over the hump.

That isn't media fabrication or hype. Jordan always lived up to and exceeded hype. He was flasy but he was also fundamental. I mean hitting free throws is fundamental, no? Jordan's the GOAT on his own merits. He doesn't need myths or marketing to make that statement for him.

Shaq.... without Pippen Jordan was nothing but a bald-headed Dominique Wilkins

[QUOTE=Desperado]Shaq.... without Pippen Jordan was nothing but a bald-headed Dominique Wilkins[/QUOTE]

Kobe and Wade > Pippen

MJ wins by a little.

Shaquille O'Neal playoff Resume from 1995 till his 1st Ring

[QUOTE=Samurai Swoosh]
In 1995, got BOUNCED in the FINALS, in a [B]SWEEP[/B].

In 1996, got BOUNCED in the ECF, in a [B]SWEEP[/B] (via past his prime Jordan)

In 1997, got BOUNCED by the Jazz in the Western Semis, [I]4 games to 1[/I]

In 1998 got BOUNCED in the WCF, by the Jazz, in a [B]SWEEP[/B]

In 1999 got BOUNCED in the WCF, by the Spurs, in a [B]SWEEP[/B][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Bigsmoke]Kobe and Wade > Pippen[/QUOTE]
Yeah ...

Let's also not forget

Penny Hardaway
Nick Anderson
Dennis Scott

Eddie Jones
Nick Van Excel

Glenn Rice
Robert Horry

Gary Payton
Karl Malone

Kobe and Wade ... two players on their way to potentially being in the top five all-time at their position.

[QUOTE=Samurai Swoosh]Yeah ...

Let's also not forget

Penny Hardaway
Nick Anderson
Dennis Scott

Eddie Jones
Nick Van Excel

Glenn Rice
Robert Horry

Kobe and Wade ... two players on their way to potentially being in the top five all-time at their position.[/QUOTE]

if anything, I think MJ was the one who developed Pippen into the player he was.

[QUOTE=Bigsmoke]if anything, MJ was the one who developed Pippen into the player he was.[/QUOTE]
He did ...

[QUOTE]I guess that's why His Airness also became most hyped and promoted NBA player of all time, Stern just couldn't resist of milking that name and making tons of money[/QUOTE]

He came along at the perfect time. Great point about Stern. Had MJ came along when Larry O'Brien was the commish he would not have become MJ the cultural icon he became. He would have been just another great players with a case for GOAT.

[QUOTE]Bigs can't get the ball without solid guards.

Jordan could do it all. As a guard who had as much if not more dominance than Shaquille O'Neal.[/QUOTE]

He had as much dominance with the caveat that he needed a custom built team around him. Can you really argue that MJ would win more with a random team than Shaq would?

[QUOTE]And Jordan had a rookie Phil Jackson as coach. When Shaq got him he was on his way to GOAT pro coach. Huge difference there, wouldn't you say?[/QUOTE]

Shaq made the NBA finals with Brian Hill!

[QUOTE]Jordan was still getting into ECF in the Playoffs, and not going down in sweeps without Phil Jackson. Once everyone picked up their weight on that team ... once Ho Grant became reliable, once Pippen manned up stopped with the idiotic mistakes / migraines / pu$$y attitude and took that next level step to a star player ... thats what put the Bulls over the hump.[/QUOTE]

It took MJ five years to reach the ECF. Shaq made it to the NBA finals in three.

You make fair points except the migraine point. Pippen should not have been playing in that game. Of course, Jordan bullied him into playing and now MJ fans 20 years later blame Pippen for playing poorly when he could barely see even though their hero is the reason he was in the game! The smart thing would be to have a guy whose vision was so poor he could barely distinguish between his teammates and the Pistons was to have him sit out. Yeah, Pippen caved into MJ's bullying and he deserves blame for that but that is irrelevant to the MJ fan hypocrisy of acting as if MJ had nothing to do with the migraine game.

How about extending that logic to Shaq's teams? It wasn't Shaq who played poorly in the 95' finals. It wasn't Shaq who caused LA to keep losing before 2000. If you blame MJ's teammates whenever he lost you have to look at Shaq's teammates when he lost and if you do you will find it was Shaq's teammates who let him down.

[QUOTE]That isn't media fabrication or hype.[/QUOTE]

Saying Jordan could "win by himself" is a fabrication and hype. Saying he was by far the most dominant player ever at his peak is fabrication and hype.

[QUOTE]Kobe and Wade > Pippen[/QUOTE]

Really? As far as peaks go yes but Pippen in 96' and 97'>Kobe from 00'-02'. How about third teammates? Did Shaq have a third HOFer like Dennis Rodman half the time?

Plus this "Kobe>Pippen" thing ignores team roles. Jordan could not function with Kobe or Wade. Jordan needed a superstar willing to let him lead the league in FGA every year. Jordan needed someone to serve as the primary ballhandler/playmaker who was not a traditional PG. Kobe and Wade could not fill these roles. Saying "Kobe>Pippen" is too simplistic. Pippen was the perfect player for Jordan: a superstar who wasn't concerned with scoring 25+ ppg and a forward who could allow Jordan to have people like John Paxson and even a SG like Ron Harper in the back court with Jordan because MJ could not function with a normal PG.

[QUOTE]In 1995, got BOUNCED in the FINALS, in a SWEEP.

In 1996, got BOUNCED in the ECF, in a SWEEP (via past his prime Jordan)

In 1997, got BOUNCED by the Jazz in the Western Semis, 4 games to 1

In 1998 got BOUNCED in the WCF, by the Jazz, in a SWEEP

In 1999 got BOUNCED in the WCF, by the Spurs, in a SWEEP[/QUOTE]

Tally: 1 NBA finals trip, 4 conference finals trips, 5 conference semi trips

How about MJ's record before his first ring?

In 1985 lost in four games in the first round
In 1986 got swept in the first round
In 1987 got swept again in the first round
In 1988 lost in five games in the second round
In 1989 ECF
In 1990 ECF

Shaq's record prior to his championship>Jordan's. Yeah, he get swept but are we to penalize Shaq for reaching the NBA finals? That is better than losing in the first or second round, no?

[QUOTE]if anything, I think MJ was the one who developed Pippen into the player he was.[/QUOTE]

More Paul Bunyan myths. This is another example of why MJ is overrated. Pippen made Pippen. Did Jordan help him? Yeah, but teammates help teammates all the time and even retired players help others. Only MJ fans claim that MJ "made" another player. No other fan group makes such an absurd claim. The hilarious thing is MJ fans only do it in the case of one player. Why hasn't Jordan "made" a HOFer in Washington and Charlotte? He can show up in practice and teach them what he did with Pippen. The "Jordan made Pippen" myth also ignores the fact that coaches exist and that other teammates exist. Collins played a huge role in developing Pippen and Grant. Other players like Oakley helped Pippen.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]More Paul Bunyan myths surrounding Jordan. :oldlol: Look at Jordan's record:

38-44
9-9
40-42
50-32
47-35
55-27
61-21
67-15
57-25
13-4
72-10
69-13
62-20
30-30
37-45

He didn't "need" anything yet mysteriously his teams were average for a good chunk of his career then magically became dominant? Was 91' Jordan that much better than 87' or 88' Jordan? What changed was he needed a great team around him and he got it by 91'. :roll: @ the notion that MJ could carry a team by himself.[/quote]

"Magically" became dominant? That track record clearly shows that by 88 the Bulls were on their way to becoming a great team, after a mere three(more like two) seasons with Jordan. What had they won beforehand?

[quote]You want to talk about carrying teams look at Shaq. He showed up in Orlando and they improved from 21 wins to 41 wins in his first year (Jordan managed only an increase from 27 wins to 38 wins. Amazing stuff.). [b]Shaq had the Magic in the NBA finals after three years[/b]. After Shaq left Orlando they collapsed. Shaq joined LA and made them champions. When he got hurt, they struggled. [b]When he left they collapsed.[/b][/quote]

Shaq had an all-star backcourt with Penny, Anderson and Scott plus he had prime Horace Grant in the frontcourt with him, one of Jordan's ex-teammates. Also, LA collapsed due to Shaq, Malone, GP [i]and[/i] Phil Jackson leaving which magnified the collapse much moreso than if Shaq alone had left.

[quote]Half this board thinks MJ "won by himself" so they don't realize that it took five or six years to build a contender around him.[/quote]

3-4, actually. That was also with a dud franchise that had won crap it's whole existence.

[quote]Great point. Look at all the great big men. They made huge impacts on their teams right off the bat because it is easier to build around them. Jordan needed an elite wing player and a all-star caliber PF around him to start winning. Kareem, Wilt, Russell, and Shaq just showed up and improved their teams instantly.[/quote]

Those guys had teams that fit them better. Also, didn't the Celtics make it to the second round of the playoffs the year before Russell showed up with Bill Sharman and Bob Cousy? Russell joining the Celtics was the equivalent of Michael Jordan joining the Spurs in 1998.

Those guys were great and all, but their situations were much different than Jordan's was in 84.

[quote]As to the OP, I assume you are talking about a random team. If that is the case I take Shaq for the reasons mentioned above regarding centers vs. perimeter players. They are comparable but Shaq would win more games with a random team than Jordan. If you have a team with an elite wing player a la Pippen and an all-star caliber PF a la Grant and Rodman then you can argue Jordan but I don't see how, looking at their histories, one can legitimately argue that prime Jordan would win more with a random team than prime Shaq would. You could plug Shaq into any team and he would make them solid immediately. The argument that he "needed" a great guard around him is purely speculation. Yeah, by coincidence he always had a great guard around him pre-Cleveland (exception: 1993 Orlando and even in 94' Penny was not yet great) but Jordan always had a great small forward with him. Does that mean Jordan "needed" a great small forward? Both players needed an elite teammate to win but the notion that Shaq "needed" a SG (Penny was a combo guard) is as false as saying Jordan "needed" a SF.

Aside from the traditional difficulties posed by building around a perimeter player versus a dominant center, Jordan comes with the added problem of not being able to function with traditional point guards. You would need to find: 1) a PG, or a SG listed as PG like Ron Harper, who can accept just standing in the corner and waiting for spot up crumbs or simply accept becoming a defensive specialist 2) [b]someone else to serve as the team's primary ballhandler/playmaker. Jordan had the skills to do the latter but not the mentality. Just ask Phil Jackson and Doug Collins.[/b] Plus, even if he had the mentality needed for a PG it would cause him to expend too much energy if he had to be the primary scorer at a clip of 30+ ppg, primary playmaker and a dominant defender. So a traditional PG couldn't do it. You would need either a PG/SG who would be willing to forfeit shooting and driving the ball, which is rare, or a "point forward" like Pippen or Kukoc. Good luck finding these type of people on random teams!
[/QUOTE]


See, this is what confuses me. Why was Michael dishing out nearly 11 assists a game during the 91 Finals, then? Just for kicks?

Also, with Shaq you need an ALL-NBA guard like Penny, Kobe or Wade, then you would need to surround him with three point shooters like Robert Horry, Rick Fox and Glen Rice. You'd also need role players like Ron Harper or Horace Grant. Hey, who did those last guys play with again?

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]
Tally: 1 NBA finals trip, 4 conference finals trips, 5 conference semi trips

How about MJ's record before his first ring?

In 1985 lost in four games in the first round
In 1986 got swept in the first round
In 1987 got swept again in the first round
In 1988 lost in five games in the second round
In 1989 ECF
In 1990 ECF

Shaq's record prior to his championship>Jordan's. Yeah, he get swept but are we to penalize Shaq for reaching the NBA finals? That is better than losing in the first or second round, no?[/QUOTE]
Not when taking into account the talents that surrounded Shaq as opposed to the talents that surrounded Jordan. Jordan didn't have a legit star caliber player next to him till 1991. Shaq in 1995 had possibly the best guard in the game on his team. Getting swept in a round of the Playoffs is like not even getting there at all. They didn't even put up a fight, basically. Jordan faced superior teams as well on his way to the ECF. The late 80's Pistons, the late 80's / early 90's Cavs, the early 90's Knicks, the late 80's Celtics ... you kidding me?

Sometimes it feels like talking to a brick wall with all these Jordan stans and fanatics:hammerhead: We get it - guy was great, has a case for being the GOAT, as some other playes in history too, but is there really a need to mystify him and put him on pedestal? Dude couldn't win ANYTHING in the 80's, apart from ballhoging and stat padding all the time, yet he is considered the "winner", and a guy like Shaq isn't one? GTFO of here with this nonsense.

Roundball, Samurai and Alhazred...The three of you make great points and back your arguments with 'proof', I guess you can say. As to why or who I'd take personally? It's tough, but I'd give the nod to MJ given he was very clutch at the end of games (with him making most of his shots, he generally was the reason Chicago would be in close games playing with his rather sub par teammates). Mike was a better overall player (skilled), better shooter, better passer, just as dominant scoring, better defender etc. With all that said Shaq was better at finishing near the rim (obviously), better at passing out of doubles, stronger physically, opened up the floor with his body. He was tough to guard, an unreal presence inside.

You MJ fans can't have it both ways. When Jordan loses it his teammates but when Shaq loses it is because of him? Look at what Shaq did in the playoffs those years.

1994: 21/13/2 51%
1995: 26/12/3 58% and 28/13/6 on 60% with 3 blocks in the 95' finals
1996: 26/10/5 61%
1997: 27/11/3 51%
1998: 31/10/2 61%
1999: 27/12/2 51%

Other than 94' he always performed well in the playoffs. Yeah, 51% in 97' and 99' is down but it is the playoffs and you are facing better defenses.

[QUOTE]"Magically" became dominant? That track record clearly shows that by 88 the Bulls were on their way to becoming a great team, after a mere three(more like two) seasons with Jordan. What had they won beforehand?
[/QUOTE]

In other words, he needed a great team custom built around him to start winning and that took time.

[QUOTE]Shaq had an all-star backcourt with Penny, Anderson and Scott plus he had prime Horace Grant in the frontcourt with him, one of Jordan's ex-teammates[/QUOTE]

Grant went down in Game 1 of the 96' ECF. You can't cite Grant and then attack him for getting swept by the 72-10 Bulls. Anderson? Scott? ANDERSON! :roll: They choked in the NBA finals.

[QUOTE]Also, LA collapsed due to Shaq, Malone, GP and Phil Jackson leaving which magnified the collapse much moreso than if Shaq alone had left.[/QUOTE]

Really? Look at LA's record when Shaq was hurt from 2001-2003.

[QUOTE]See, this is what confuses me. [/QUOTE]

Ask Phil Jackson or Doug Collins the next time you see them. Jordan shot the ball more than [U]anyone[/U] in history. That is who you want as a PG? :wtf:

[QUOTE]Also, with Shaq you need an ALL-NBA guard like Penny, Kobe or Wade, then you would need to surround him with three point shooters like Robert Horry, Rick Fox and Glen Rice. You'd also need role players like Ron Harper or Horace Grant.[/QUOTE]

That is speculation. Just because he always had a great guard with him until Cleveland doesn't mean he "needed" one. Could he have won with a great SF like Lebron or Pippen? Yes. Using your logic Jordan "needed" a great SF and an all-star caliber PF. You are being too specific. Yeah, they both needed a great second teammate and good teams as a whole around them but to say they needed a particular position simply because Kobe, Wade happened to be SG's and Penny a combo guard is inaccurate as saying Jordan "needed" a SF and an all-star caliber PF. He needed a PF to rebound and play interior defense. He could get that from a C. What he needed Pippen for had little to do with being a SF and as we know Pippen was not a traditional SF.

[QUOTE]Jordan faced superior teams as well on his way to the ECF.[/QUOTE]

Shaq faced absolute peak Hakeem in 95', a 72-10 team in 96', the 60+ win Malone-Stockton Jazz in 97' and 98' and the Duncan-Robinson Spurs in 99'. It isn't as if Shaq was losing to Golden State a la the 07' Mavs.

[QUOTE]guy was great, has a case for being the GOAT, as some other playes in history too, but is there really a need to mystify him and put him on pedestal? Dude couldn't win ANYTHING in the 80's, apart from ballhoging and stat padding all the time, yet he is considered the "winner", and a guy like Shaq isn't one? GTFO of here with this nonsense.[/QUOTE]

:applause:

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]More Paul Bunyan myths surrounding Jordan. :oldlol: Look at Jordan's record:

38-44
9-9
40-42
50-32
47-35
55-27
61-21
67-15
57-25
13-4
72-10
69-13
62-20
30-30
37-45

He didn't "need" anything yet mysteriously his teams were average for a good chunk of his career then magically became dominant? Was 91' Jordan that much better than 87' or 88' Jordan? What changed was he needed a great team around him and he got it by 91'. :roll: @ the notion that MJ could carry a team by himself.

[/QUOTE]


LOL wow you are so damn sensitive. I'm pretty sure plowking didn't mean it literally. From the rest of his post, it sounds like he's saying that Shaq was way more dependent on his teammates then Jordan, which is absolutely true because of the fact that at times he was just a complete liability at the end of games.

As far as the topic goes, I'd go with Jordan for the above reason and he wasn't injured so much like Shaq was.