Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]What relevance does any of that have? I know some want to make every Pippen thread a Jordan thread but this is a thread about Pippen having great playoff games. In that series a key part of the story is Pippen stepping up when Jordan was down [I]at times[/I] (something some claim was never possible). Did you see me go out of my way to mention Jordan shot 17% in Game 3? No, because it wasn't relevant but if my intent was to bash Jordan I would have mentioned it. Did you see me say Jordan sucked every game? All I--and commentators and Sports Illustrated--said is when the Bulls needed Pippen to step up in the clutch he did. It is hard to talk about this while completely ignoring Jordan. If Jordan did not struggle SOME of the time there would be no occasion for Pippen to step up. What am I supposed to say? "Pippen stepped up when Player X was struggling"? :oldlol:

Relax. Jordan had maybe only 2-3 "bad", by his standards, series in his entire career! :bowdown:[/quote]

Forget what I said about Jordan, then. I apologize.

[quote]None of that is relevant to defense. I am sure people scored a lot in games which Russell dominated defensively as well. So if someone talks about Russell dominating defensively does that mean we have to mention what Sam Jones or Havelick scored as well?[/quote]

That really wasn't what I was trying to say. I wasn't trying to prop up Scottie's teammate's in game 3. You are correct in saying Scottie dominated defensively in game 3, there is no disputing that. Utah couldn't do sh-t that game and left shell-shocked thanks to Scottie.

[quote]15/6/6 on paper is hardly a superstar performance.[/quote]

Like I said, if he coasted. He probably could have finished with more than that. Regardless, he still had a great defensive performance.

[quote]Besides, he had 0 points in the second half. I don't think anyone was really trying by that point. According to some you have to score 30 points or you suck. It wasn't just that game. They gave him credit only for a 28 point Game 4. The story of the series was defense when the Bulls went up 3-1 before he got hurt and he was easily the primary reason for that. Yet all a few posters talked about was his scoring and comparing 20 ppg to 30 ppg. There were even some who claimed that another player, with, um, [I]much less[/I] responsibilities on defense had basically as much impact defensively on that series as Pippen. They did not even acknowledge Pippen's defensive dominance, even when a mountain of contemporary primary source evidence was presented to them. It wouldn't have mattered if he scored 4 points (Game 1 98' ECF), 10 points, or 20 points to them. 30+ or bust, baby![/QUOTE]

Is this in reference to users who made threads older than my account? I've seen maybe a couple of people bring it up here and no one really went into a heavy discussion regarding it.

Great post that not only portrays Pippen accurately as not only one of the great winners in NBA history, but also one of the best all around forwards of all time. I can't think of a defensive small forward as good as him, and the only players I can think of being as capable in the point forward role are Lebron and perhaps Grant Hill in his prime. Not to mention that he was a good 3 point shooter, could post up and score with a little jump hook or bank shot, he was excellent in the open court and a great penetrator. Of course with his 7'2" wingspan and athleticism he was also one of the best finishers of his day. All of that is why you count on him to average an efficient 19-22 ppg.

And finally, a part of Pippen's game that goes overlooked so often is his rebounding. How many other small forwards in the last 20 years were getting 8-9 rpg?

Great post :bowdown: . Something like this was needed considering how ignorant 90% of ISH on Pippen.

This is just from '91-'93. He was beasting for most of the 1990 playoffs too. I know boxscores from games before 1991 aren't available, so I'll lift the curtain on Pippen's 1990 playoffs run, when apparently he wasn't a legit second option or "giving enough help" according to a misinformed group....

Game 1 vs. Bucks - 17/10/13 - opens up the playoffs with a triple double
Game 2 vs. Bucks - 32/8/8/4 - yes, this is Pippen's line, not Jordan's. 24 year old second options aren't suppose to have games like this! He dominated defensively as well.
Game 3 vs. Bucks - 21/9/9/2 - MJ and Alvin Robertson were having a shootout. In the first half MJ was picking up the scoring load and Robertson went off for 24 pts on him, and it was continuing midway through the third until Pippen came on him and held AR to like 7-8 pts afterwards (most were in transition or off switches btw).
Game 4 vs. Bucks - 20/11/2/4 - if this game was competitive, we'd be looking at a 28/12/5/5 type of game. led the Bulls in this game to close out the Bucks.

so, dude completely [B]dismantled [/B]the Bucks :oldlol:

And then on to the Sixers series. Bulls had a great matchup again with Jordan getting a 6'2 poor defensive shooting guard on him and the Bulls decided to exploit it for all it was worth. It was a good strategy to give MJ an unrestrained green light since he literally had to just shoot, with Hawkins/Dawkins having 0 chance of bothering his shot, and the lane being "anchored" by Charles Barkley :oldlol: . So Pip wasn't needed to score as much and he wouldn't get many shots/possessions to use, as MJ was "getting his" with 32 shots a game. Pip still had 18/12/8 in game 1, found out his dad had 24 hours to live right before game 3 (was understandably unfocused during the game), flew out to meet him and got to spend 2 hours with him before he died. He missed game 4 due to the funeral but then came back big time in game 5 for a brilliant 29/6/3/2 game (13/17 shooting!) to close out the Sixers with MJ.

In the Pistons series, he wasn't as effective, mainly due to bad road performances by the entire team. No one could get it going offensively as Pistons distrupted the entire offense and shut down the Bulls. Even MJ, at the peak of his career, shot just 12/27, 5/16, 7/19 and 13/27 in the road games. Scottie, like MJ, was still great in the home games. In game 3 he dropped 29/11/5/3 and shot 57% in all the home games combined. Of course the only thing from the entire series and playoff run that is brought up is a game where Pippen had a migraine so bad that his vision was blurred.

Pippen was already one of the best second options in the league by 1990 (was better than someone like Worthy at that point, especially considering he had already become a beast on defense). This is why I find it ridiculous that people point to ONE boxscore, in a game Pippen wasn't even healthy to to bash him (clearly so the accomplishments of another player can look better by discrediting him).

I've seen almost every game from his 1990 playoffs run over the last year and I think I'll make a youtube channel highlighting some of these great games, as well as ones from '91-'93 too, because most Pippen games uploaded are post-'94.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]How many other small forwards in the last 20 years were getting 8-9 rpg?[/QUOTE]
This is a very important point. He averaged 2.5 offensive boards in a season and got around 3.5 in some of his playoff runs. Offensive rebounds are tougher to get, and are usually more accurate at determining a player's rebounding skill (considering how many defensive rebounds go uncontested). To put things in perspective, a great rebounding SF like Lebron doesn't even average half the number of offensive rebounds that Pippen did. Even Jordan, who was a great offensive rebounder for a perimeter player never got above 2. Can't count how many times Pippen got Bulls extra possessions during key moments in playoff games, same with Grant. Rebounders like Pippen, Grant and later Rodman (along with Jordan too), are why Bulls never missed having an elite center. They had the best rebounders in the league position wise at SG, SF and PF.

I sort of wish Pippen came into the league a couple of years earlier. He could have really used Jordan's injury in '86 as an opportunity to develop his scoring skills a lot more when he was young (and despite playing with someone who took 25+ shots a game, he still developed significantly and became a 20-22 ppg at 50% type of guy). There was a lot of untapped scoring potential in Pippen imo. Especially in the early years, I could see him getting close to 25 ppg as the game was more open in 1988-1991 than 1994.

Fatal9 has gone beyond being a troll. We need to invent a new word for him. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]Fatal9 has gone beyond being a troll. We need to invent a new word for him. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]


Yup, he must just be a troll because your opinions are unrefuted facts and you don't agree with him. :lol

[QUOTE=branslowski]Because he's highlighting the greatness of Scottie Pippen and your just a pissed of MJ fan who hates anything associated with him?

Might I add pissed off for no reason...MJ=GOAT. Period. MJ>>>Pippen. Period.

What more does these MJ groupies want? A Blow Job for Jordan and a hand job for his friend Bugz Bunny?:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

You might want to read his post again and pay attention to certain language. THAT'S why he's a troll.

[QUOTE=branslowski]Because he's highlighting the greatness of Scottie Pippen and your just a pissed of MJ fan who hates anything associated with him?[/QUOTE]
funny thing is, no one has posted his 1990 playoffs run in detail before (stats for that aren't available on internet as far as I know). dude is clearly pissed that Pippen did much better than he thought, and was one of the best second options in the league (commentators and opposing coaching staffs even saying he would be #1 on most teams). apparently anything not from the perspective of a Jordan fan is trolling, especially if it's facts and observations like my post earlier. btw, i can't recall how many times loki has posted the game 7 boxscore completely out of context, followed shortly by "[I]see...Jordan had no help before 1991![/I]". another Pippen myth busted though :D

[QUOTE=Fatal9]Great post :bowdown: . Something like this was needed considering how ignorant 90% of ISH on Pippen.

This is just from '91-'93. He was beasting for most of the 1990 playoffs too. I know boxscores from games before 1991 aren't available, so I'll lift the curtain on Pippen's 1990 playoffs run, when apparently he wasn't a legit second option or "giving enough help" according to a misinformed group....

Game 1 vs. Bucks - 17/10/13 - opens up the playoffs with a triple double
Game 2 vs. Bucks - 32/8/8/4 - yes, this is Pippen's line, not Jordan's. 24 year old second options aren't suppose to have games like this! He dominated defensively as well.
Game 3 vs. Bucks - 21/9/9/2 - MJ and Alvin Robertson were having a shootout. In the first half MJ was picking up the scoring load and Robertson went off for 24 pts on him, and it was continuing midway through the third until Pippen came on him and held AR to like 7-8 pts afterwards (most were in transition or off switches btw).
Game 4 vs. Bucks - 20/11/2/4 - if this game was competitive, we'd be looking at a 28/12/5/5 type of game. led the Bulls in this game to close out the Bucks. [/QUOTE]

I didn't realize Pippen was that good in 1990. I'll have to check out some more games from 1990, particularly the playoffs.

[QUOTE]This is a very important point. He averaged 2.5 offensive boards in a season and got around 3.5 in some of his playoff runs. Offensive rebounds are tougher to get, and are usually more accurate at determining a player's rebounding skill (considering how many defensive rebounds go uncontested). To put things in perspective, a great rebounding SF like Lebron doesn't even average half the number of offensive rebounds that Pippen did. Even Jordan, who was a great offensive rebounder for a perimeter player never got above 2. Can't count how many times Pippen got Bulls extra possessions during key moments in playoff games, same with Grant. Rebounders like Pippen, Grant and later Rodman (along with Jordan too), are why Bulls never missed having an elite center. They had the best rebounders in the league position wise at SG, SF and PF.[/QUOTE]

Good point about offensive rebounds, a lot of people overlook that when judging rebounders.

[QUOTE]I sort of wish Pippen came into the league a couple of years earlier. He could have really used Jordan's injury in '86 as an opportunity to develop his scoring skills a lot more when he was young (and despite playing with someone who took 25+ shots a game, he still developed significantly and became a 20-22 ppg at 50% type of guy). There was a lot of untapped scoring potential in Pippen imo. Especially in the early years, I could see him getting close to 25 ppg as the game was more open in 1988-1991 than 1994.[/QUOTE]

Good point. Pippen is one of the best players I've seen in the open court and he'd be great in that type of ststem in his prime.

[quote]I didn't realize Pippen was that good in 1990. I'll have to check out some more games from 1990, particularly the playoffs.[/quote]

Scottie actually had a very good season in 1990, unfortunately the game 7 against Detroit has overshadowed it over the years. Had he not been dealing with that migraine, people would probably view that season much differently.

[QUOTE=branslowski]Ok I have to admit...I :oldlol: @ This gem:



Is this a fact Loki? Or did he make this up?....

I know Jordan did more than just shoot.

:oldlol: This is why I never try to get in these "In the Past" debates...Because they go on and on and can never change because the facts within the topic never change.[/QUOTE]

Hawkins did guard MJ for much of the series, but what's telling is his language (Hawkins was 6'3", not 6'2", and was never called a bad defender by anyone; in fact, his defense was routinely praised, even in that series. He was no all-league defender, but he was solid). They tried Ron Anderson (6'7") on MJ too, but of course no player 6'6" or above had any chance of staying in front of 1990 Jordan, so that ended quickly. Dawkins rarely, if ever, guarded MJ that series (I have the entire series on DVD and most games are up on YT to verify).

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]I didn't realize Pippen was that good in 1990. I'll have to check out some more games from 1990, particularly the playoffs. [/QUOTE]
Game 2 from the Bucks series is really great. Jordan and Pippen were both playing at a high level. It was very physical too...the famous foul when Jordan drives baseline and gets ganged up by 3 guys and one of them powerslams him to the court is from that game iirc. But yes, Pippen was very good. He took his game to another level in the playoffs. Even in his rookie year, he saved his best game of the season for a do or die game vs Cavs in the playoffs. Roundball mentioned it in another thread, though I haven't watched it yet.

[QUOTE=branslowski]Ok I have to admit...I :oldlol: @ This gem:



Is this a fact Loki? Or did he make this up?....

I know Jordan did more than just shoot.

:oldlol: This is why I never try to get in these "In the Past" debates...Because they go on and on and can never change because the facts within the topic never change.[/QUOTE]
That was clearly the Bulls strategy though. Seriously brans, watch even one game from this series. You have a 6'2 or 6'3 guy, who is already a poor defender on you, you are the best player in the league, you have every physical advantage imaginable on the guy...you think they were not going to exploit that? I was literally LOLing at the matchup, it was completely unfair. Like matching a center against a SF. There's a reason he took 30 shots in game 1, 36 in game 2, 34 in game 3, 31 in game 4 and settled with 26 in game 5 (this is unusually high even for MJ). I am not criticizing him, he would be stupid not to take 30+ shots every game that series (and he lit it up like he should have). I was pointing out the different strategy in the Sixers series resulting in Pippen handling the ball much less than usual. I don't know how anyone who watched the series can think otherwise. Dawkins may be an "average" defender like loki says, but I've seen Alvin Robertson rise from his grave to have a career playoff game against him (and he didn't have Jordan's physical advantages as AR was like 6'2 or 6'3 too I think).

[QUOTE=Alhazred]Scottie actually had a very good season in 1990, unfortunately the game 7 against Detroit has overshadowed it over the years. Had he not been dealing with that migraine, people would probably view that season much differently.[/QUOTE]
I can't even walk if I get a migraine, especially one bad enough to blur your vision. I would almost rather play with a physical injury like a strain than one that completely messes with your senses like that, especially in a sport where you need to be very precise. It was unfortunate timing, though I think the Bulls would still lose, they just couldn't win on the road that series. Pippen still played fairly well in the first couple of road games was averaging 17 ppg on 50% but the rest of the guys just didn't have it going (MJ only 39.5% but made up for it by exploding in the following home games).

[quote]I can't even walk if I get a migraine, especially one bad enough to blur your vision. I would almost rather play with a physical injury like a strain than one that completely messes with your senses like that, especially in a sport where you need to be very precise. It was unfortunate timing, though I think the Bulls would still lose, they just couldn't win on the road that series. Pippen still played fairly well in the first couple of road games was averaging 17 ppg on 50% but the rest of the guys just didn't have it going (MJ only 39.5% but made up for it by exploding in the following home games).[/quote]

Kareem complained about his reoccurring migraines frequently throughout his career. In the 85 Finals he was actually puking from one before a game but still managed to put up a 30/10. They're not something that should be written off lightly.

Honestly, I think if Scottie had been healthy that game the Bulls could have caused an upset. Imagine how epic it would have been beating the "Bad Boys" on their own court!

[QUOTE=Fatal9]Gwho is already a poor defender on you[/quote]

Where are you getting that Hawkins was a poor defender from? No one has ever said that about him besides you. Commentators/analysts (even during that series) praised his defense in general. He was a solid defender.

[quote] you are the best player in the league, you have every physical advantage imaginable on the guy...you think they were not going to exploit that?[/quote]

You'd be right if MJ were raining jumpers over Hawkins all day, but instead he was routinely taking him off the dribble. A 6'6" guy should not be able to routinely explode past a 6'3" guy who is a solid defender, but he did time and again.

[quote]Dawkins may be an "average" defender like loki says[/quote]

Dawkins (not Hawkins) never guarded MJ that series save for isolated switches.

[quote] but I've seen Alvin Robertson rise from his grave to have a career playoff game against him (and he didn't have Jordan's physical advantages as AR was like 6'2 or 6'3 too I think).[/quote]

AR [i]should have been[/i] significantly quicker than Jordan and able to stay in front of him (especially given his defensive ability as a former DPOY and multiple time first teamer), but instead (like Hawkins) got routinely beat off the dribble. AR also had good hops. I take it you didn't see the many nice dunks he had in that series.

Most of AR's points that game came in transition and on defensive scrambles anyway.

[quote=branslowski]Now if your same comment was made by a well known respected Jordan fan, im pretty sure Loki wouldn't have a problem with it.[/quote]

No Jordan lover or objective fan in general would make that comment, because Hawkins flat out was not a poor defender by any stretch. It's objectively false. No one besides Fatal9 has ever said such a thing, and in fact many people have said just the opposite: that he was a solid/good defender. Unless you're looking at the [B]RESULTS[/B] (i.e., MJ averaging like 45/7/7/52% against him that series) and drawing conclusions from that, but if that's the case then anyone who any great scorer has ever lit up is a poor defender. It's classic [I]post hoc ergo propter hoc[/I] fallacious reasoning. I guess ARob and Paul Pressey (two multi-time defensive first/second teamers) were also poor defenders since MJ averaged 37/8/7/53% on them in the 1990 playoffs. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=branslowski]Ok I have to admit...I :oldlol: @ This gem:



Is this a fact Loki? Or did he make this up?....

I know Jordan did more than just shoot.

:oldlol: This is why I never try to get in these "In the Past" debates...Because they go on and on and can never change because the facts within the topic never change.[/QUOTE]
All Mj did was shoot? Brans listening to a troll like Faketal.
Game 3 [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGhvH7SSNW8[/url]
gm4 [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1pMxyP6UcY[/url]

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]AR [i]should have been[/i] significantly quicker than Jordan and able to stay in front of him (especially given his defensive ability as a former DPOY and multiple time first teamer), but instead (like Hawkins) got routinely beat off the dribble. AR also had good hops. I take it you didn't see the many nice dunks he had in that series.[/QUOTE]
Um, what does this have to do with what I was saying? I was talking about AR vs. Hawkins in '91 not his matchup with Jordan. I've only seen one game from the Sixers-Bucks series in '91 and watching AR go from putting like 13 ppg in the season to torching the dude for 30+ and average like 24 ppg on 60%, isn't exactly going to help me think he was a "good" defender. This is really for another thread (maybe you should make a Jordan in 1990 playoffs thread :rolleyes:). I was pointing out the reason for high FGA by Jordan during the series, and the Bulls strategy to exploit the mismatch (almost 32 shots a game in that series vs. 24 for the rest of the playoffs). BTW, I watched this series in the last two weeks. It was the only one missing from the 1990 run that I hadn't seen, and lol @ you acting like Jordan wasn't simply rising up and shooting for most of it. He drove too, like always, but it's a joke to act like he wasn't making full use of the matchup.

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]Dawkins (not Hawkins) never guarded MJ that series save for isolated switches.[/QUOTE]
confused the two. I meant Hawkins (as you were referring to him).