Scoring Wise:Kareem Abdul Jabbar vs Wilt Chamberlain?

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Wilt would be a better scorer than Kareem if he decided to cut out the holding back due to hating the perception of him as just being a bully. Wilt being as good, athletic, and strong as he was...him shooting so many fadeaways is almost unacceptable regardless of the results. He would tell you himself that he didnt always take the easiest shots he could because he wanted to show he was skilled(Hes admitted as much many times....interview with Russell and costas being the best example on youtube).

Guy took too many garbage shots relative to his talent.

In so many ways he played less than his best its hard to look the other way.

Im sure that will result in someone(well..we know who it will be) pointing out a bunch of numbers showing him playing well...which isnt in dispute.

But I cant ignore his refusal to get the best shots so he could look skilled to idiots.

Lot of insecurity issues with him.[/QUOTE]

I won't argue with some of this. Wilt COULD have just CRUSHED his peers. Instead, he was a "gentle giant." Still, I seriously doubt that the NBA would ever have allowed Wilt to play like Shaq did in his career. Keep in mind that the NBA was continually throwing up "anti-WILT" rules in his career, in an attempt to curtail his dominance. Most had little to no effect.

The other "issue' that Wilt had was that he was constantly saddled with inept coach's who had no clue how to use him. They either depended on him to do everything, while his usually pathetic teammates just watched (and then it was Wilt who took the blame when they failed)...or they handcuffed him (and again, it was Wilt who was blamed for not doing more). Only Hannum and Sharman knew how to best use him.

Wilt didnt need to knock people ever. Ive never once seen Wilt attempt to go around anyone guarding him from 10-12 feet and fail. And thats including old Wilt. He could have abused people and he just didnt feel like it. He produced too much to say he wasnt ding his job...but I have no doubt he wasnt doing the best he could far as getting himself easy shots. He isnt missing 50% of his shots making an effort to get an easy one every time. He isnt missing 40% either. not in the early 60s.

Part of that was the "**** it...." shot selection of the era that didnt stress good shots. But part of it is him just....not wanting to push people around or embarrass people.

Chapter in his A view from Above book on how it felt being so tall....when he admitted he would allow poor ball handling bigs to dribble and shoot when he could just take the ball...because he hated making other tall guys look like bumbling idiots?

It almost pisses me off.

Wilt with the will to win of a Bird or Jordan might literally have scored 50 a game on 65% shooting.

[QUOTE=jlauber]Meanwhile, Wilt took pathetic rosters to within an eyelash of beating HOF-laden Celtic squads,... as well as leading the league in SCORING, REBOUNDING, and FG%, in the SAME season...and in a season in which his TEAM had the BEST RECORD in the league.[/QUOTE]

I've said this to you once before, but since you ignored it last time i will put it in bold capitals for you:

[B]COMPLETELY EXONERATING WILT FOR HIS EARLY TEAMMATES POOR SHOOTING IS FARCICAL. BASKETBALL IS A TEAM GAME. WILT WASN'T A TEAM PLAYER FOR HIS FIRST 7 YEARS.[/B]

Do you know how i know this?

In the 1965/66 postseason, with wilt playing selfishly and focusing exclusively on points, his teammates shot poorly and they crashed out to the celtics in round 1.

The very next season, with wilt playing unselfishly [B]and with the exact same team[/B], they shot much better and went on to win the championship, beating boston along the way. Is this a coincidence? Of course not.

[QUOTE=oolalaa]I've said this to you once before, but since you ignored it last time i will put it in bold capitals for you:

[B]COMPLETELY EXONERATING WILT FOR HIS EARLY TEAMMATES POOR SHOOTING IS FARCICAL. BASKETBALL IS A TEAM GAME. WILT WASN'T A TEAM PLAYER FOR HIS FIRST 7 YEARS.[/B]

Do you know how i know this?

[B]In the 1965/66 postseason, with wilt playing selfishly and focusing exclusively on points, his teammates shot poorly and they crashed out to the celtics in round 1[/B].

The very next season, with wilt playing unselfishly [B]and with the exact same team[/B], they shot much better and went on to win the championship, beating boston along the way. Is this a coincidence? Of course not.[/QUOTE]

You know how I KNOW that you are wrong? In that 65-66 season, Wilt averaged 33.5 ppg, 24.6 rpg, shot .540, and handed out 5.2 apg. His teammates collectively shot .416.

In that playoffs, Wilt averaged 28 ppg, 30 rpg, shot .509, and handed out 3.0 apg. Now, you could argue that apg dropped...BUT, think about this...his teammates collectively shot .352 in that post-season. Don't you think that had they shot remotely close to their regular season FG%, that Wilt's apg would have been higher? The ONLY player who played anywhere near his regular season numbers....was WILT. His TEAMMATES were AWFUL.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Yes, here's a post I made about Kareem's '77 season. [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=231270"]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=231270[/URL]

I do believe that to be his peak, most of the top 10 players peaked in a championship season, but Kareem was one of the clear exceptions, imo.[/QUOTE]

I disagree with this.

I find it hard to look past kareems 79/80 campaign when determining his 'peak' as it was certainly his greatest all round season...

reg season - 38.3 mpg, 24.8 ppg/16.9 fga on .604 fg%, 10.8 rpg, 4.5 apg, 1.0 spg, 3,4 bpg
playoffs - 41.2 mpg, 31.9 ppg/23.0 fga on .572 fg%, 12.1 rpg, 3.1 apg, 1.1 spg, 3.9 bpg
finals - 40.6 mpg, 33.4 ppg/22.2 fga on .549 fg%, 13.6 rpg, 3.2 apg, 0.6 spg, 4.6 bpg

mvp, all nba 1st, all def 1st, blocks champ, *robbed of finals mvp*

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Wilt didnt need to knock people ever. Ive never once seen Wilt attempt to go around anyone guarding him from 10-12 feet and fail. And thats including old Wilt. He could have abused people and he just didnt feel like it. He produced too much to say he wasnt ding his job...but I have no doubt he wasnt doing the best he could far as getting himself easy shots. He isnt missing 50% of his shots making an effort to get an easy one every time. He isnt missing 40% either. not in the early 60s.

Part of that was the "**** it...." shot selection of the era that didnt stress good shots. But part of it is him just....not wanting to push people around or embarrass people.

Chapter in his A view from Above book on how it felt being so tall....when he admitted he would allow poor ball handling bigs to dribble and shoot when he could just take the ball...because he hated making other tall guys look like bumbling idiots?

It almost pisses me off.

Wilt with the will to win of a Bird or Jordan might literally have scored 50 a game on 65% shooting.[/QUOTE]

Watch the YouTube footage of the game in which the Bucks ended LA's 33 game winning streak. Going on memory, at about the seven minute mark of that footage, Kareem "sucker punches" Happy Hairston. Wilt storms over to assist Hairston, and Kareem retreats to the corner. On the very next play, the Lakers inbound the ball to Wilt, who just blows right thru a helpless Kareem for an easy basket. CLEARLY, had Wilt played with THAT mentality,...well, the NBA probably would have folded. Who would want to watch ONE man OBLITERATING an entire league?

[quote=oolalaa]I've said this to you once before, but since you ignored it last time i will put it in bold capitals for you:

[B]COMPLETELY EXONERATING WILT FOR HIS EARLY TEAMMATES POOR SHOOTING IS FARCICAL. BASKETBALL IS A TEAM GAME. WILT WASN'T A TEAM PLAYER FOR HIS FIRST 7 YEARS.[/B]

Do you know how i know this?

In the 1965/66 postseason, with wilt playing selfishly and focusing exclusively on points, his teammates shot poorly and they crashed out to the celtics in round 1.

The very next season, with wilt playing unselfishly [B]and with the exact same team[/B], they shot much better and went on to win the championship, beating boston along the way. Is this a coincidence? Of course not.[/quote] :facepalm




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[URL="http://books.google.com/books?id=aLkDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA43&dq=wilt+chamberlain+schayes&hl=en&ei=GUNQTdrHBIT68AaJtryCDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false"]Jet Magazine - Apr 7, 1966[/URL]

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Considering how few touches he received in the games due to the sagging defense, we must assume a number of his missed FG's were tip-in attempts in the congested paint. He averaged 30 boards for the series and a good chunk of them must have come on the offensive end.


Here is an example below (Chamberlain off. rebound + dunk) showing just how poor the Sixers shooting was. Wali barely hits the backboard on a 15 foot jumper.


18:33 mark

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEdiptkyYsY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEdiptkyYsY[/URL]


Also note another Chamberlain rebound & dunk at the 18:51 mark in the same video above from the '66 series. We can also note how the Celtics pressed full court to keep the ball out of his hands as much as possible and at the 17:20 mark off the opening jump ball how the defense was shifted to Wilt's (left) side of the floor, leaving Wali unguarded for a shot. We can also see a Bill Russell [I]"intangible"[/I] quality off the inbounds.

[I][B]"When I feel he is relaxed, I burst down on the break, and we murder him. But this works just once and two points do not win a ball game."[/B][/I]


Some have stated that Wilt was the main reason for the loss in '66, that the Sixers would have won had he statistically performed up to par. In the 1st half of G5, Coach Schayes noted that Chamberlain was the only player to shoot [B]25%[/B] or better from the field on his way to a 46 point night.


[URL="http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=uYxDAAAAIBAJ&sjid=k64MAAAAIBAJ&pg=1086,830822&dq"]Apr 13, 1966[/URL]

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[B]Game 1:[/B]

Sixers hit with the flu + 2 week layoff = 19 turnovers in a 19 point loss.

[I]Wilt Chamberlain did his work under the boards, taking 32 rebounds for the 76ers. But his mates couldn't get the ball into him often and he made only nine field goals in scoring 25 points.[/I]

[IMG]http://i53.tinypic.com/qnah3c.png[/IMG]


[B]Game 2:[/B]

[IMG]http://i53.tinypic.com/b6f3a9.png[/IMG]


[B]Game 3:[/B]

[I]Their defense was the barbed wire. Every time they needed a key basket, Wilt Chamberlain poured through the lane and got it for them. That was how the Philadelphia 76ers got back into contention in the Eastern Division playoffs with a 111-105 victory over the Boston Celtics Thursday night at Convention Hall.[/I]

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[B]Game 4:[/B] Chamberlain with the block at the end of regulation to force OT.


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[B]Game 5:[/B]

[I]Christian Science Monitor - Apr 14, 1966

Wilt took 34 shots, hitting on 19. But he was only eight for 25 with his free throws. Chamberlain scored 46 points, no small since Russell played him tight and with a maximum amount of contact. But Wilt could have gone to 63 with Bill Sharman's touch at the foul line. Boston's cornermen excelled, not only, but also on offense. John Havlicek played the full 48 minutes and scored 32 points. Tom Sanders probably had his best game of the series with 11 points and 16 rebounds.[/I]

[URL="http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=GEtQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=XFcDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6818,3280761"]Apr 18, 1966[/URL]

[IMG]http://i54.tinypic.com/29c9quh.png[/IMG]


[URL="http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=jmhGAAAAIBAJ&sjid=EekMAAAAIBAJ&pg=2385,4171263&dq"]Schenectady Gazette - Aug 24, 1966[/URL]

[IMG]http://i56.tinypic.com/2n7o36t.png[/IMG]


[URL="http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=I7hIAAAAIBAJ&sjid=UQENAAAAIBAJ&pg=2872,281349&dq"]The Morning Record - Nov 3, 1966[/URL]

[IMG]http://i54.tinypic.com/30vgmxh.png[/IMG]

[QUOTE=jlauber]You know how I KNOW that you are wrong? In that 65-66 season, Wilt averaged 33.5 ppg, 24.6 rpg, shot .540, and [B]handed out 5.2 apg. His teammates collectively shot .416.[/B]

[B]In that playoffs[/B], Wilt averaged 28 ppg, 30 rpg, shot .509, [B]and handed out 3.0 apg[/B]. Now, you could argue that apg dropped...BUT, think about this...his teammates collectively shot .352 in that post-season. Don't you think that had they shot remotely close to their regular season FG%, that Wilt's apg would have been higher? The ONLY player who played anywhere near his regular season numbers....was WILT. His TEAMMATES were AWFUL.[/QUOTE]


:roll:

Do you not understand? Being a one man team doesn't work in the playoffs!!

His teammates shot poorly because wilt was a selfish scorer!! Wilt didn't 'get it' in his first 7 years. He didn't have a clue how to make his teammates better and had no idea that playing unselfishly would actually help his team win.

He could get away with just pouring in the points in the reg season without his team suffering too much but it took him 8 years to realize that passing the ball and setting up teammates was the right strategy to overcome boston in the playoffs.

[QUOTE=jlauber]Watch the YouTube footage of the game in which the Bucks ended LA's 33 game winning streak. Going on memory, at about the seven minute mark of that footage, Kareem "sucker punches" Happy Hairston. Wilt storms over to assist Hairston, and Kareem retreats to the corner. On the very next play, the Lakers inbound the ball to Wilt, who just blows right thru a helpless Kareem for an easy basket. CLEARLY, [B]had Wilt played with THAT mentality[/B],...well, the NBA probably would have folded. Who would want to watch ONE many OBLITERATING an entire league?[/QUOTE]

That's the biggest problem with wilt. His mentality.

He wasn't a hyper competitive/cold blooded/winning is everything guy like jordan/magic/russell/bird were. He admits this and has criticised russell for being 'too obsessed with winning' :roll:

If he was, you may be right, the league probably would have folded :lol

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Wilt didnt need to knock people ever. Ive never once seen Wilt attempt to go around anyone guarding him from 10-12 feet and fail. And thats including old Wilt. He could have abused people and he just didnt feel like it. He produced too much to say he wasnt ding his job...but I have no doubt he wasnt doing the best he could far as getting himself easy shots. He isnt missing 50% of his shots making an effort to get an easy one every time. He isnt missing 40% either. not in the early 60s.

Part of that was the "**** it...." shot selection of the era that didnt stress good shots. But part of it is him just....not wanting to push people around or embarrass people.

Chapter in his A view from Above book on how it felt being so tall....when he admitted he would allow poor ball handling bigs to dribble and shoot when he could just take the ball...because he hated making other tall guys look like bumbling idiots?

It almost pisses me off.

Wilt with the will to win of a Bird or Jordan might literally have scored 50 a game on 65% shooting.[/QUOTE]

BTW, for all the criticism that Wilt received for supposedly not going "all out"...what about Kareem? My god, he folded SEVERAL times in his post-seasons. And, even the movie "Airplane" spoofed his lack of motivation. IMHO, Kareem "went thru the motions" far more than Wilt did.

[QUOTE=PHILA].[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure why you facepalmed me :facepalm

Alex Hannum gets credit for kickstarting wilts unselfishness and rightly so. Do you think the 76ers would have won in 66/67 with wilt playing like he was the season before. Of course not.

It really is that simple.

[quote=jlauber]BTW, for all the criticism that Wilt received for supposedly not going "all out"...what about Kareem? My god, he folded SEVERAL times in his post-seasons. And, even the movie "Airplane" spoofed his lack of motivation. IMHO, Kareem "went thru the motions" far more than Wilt did.[/quote]
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d0WRHLcvMY#t=15m45s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d0WRHLcvMY#t=15m45s[/URL]


[I]Philadelphia Daily News - Jun 2, 1983

So, Billy Cunningham was asked, en route home from sweeping Los Angeles, what would he have said if President Reagan had called? "I would've told him, No. 1, that I voted for him," the 76ers' coach replied. "No. 2, I would've told him that this team, given what they've gone through and what they've accomplished, is a great example of what America is all about." Their last title had come in the spring of '67, in the Cow Palace in San Francisco. "I was there," said Dr. Stanley Lorber, one of the team physicians. "It was exciting, but it was nothing like this. That team, with Wilt, pretty much expected to win. They hadn't gone through the same tribulations. "I spent some time with Wilt this time, and I was startled by what he said to me on the phone after Game 1. He said, without hesitation, that the Lakers would not win a game, that they couldn't do it with a center who doesn't play at both ends consistently."[/I]

[QUOTE=oolalaa]I'm not sure why you facepalmed me :facepalm

Alex Hannum gets credit for kickstarting wilts unselfishness and rightly so. Do you think the 76ers would have won in 66/67 with wilt playing like he was the season before. Of course not.

It really is that simple.[/QUOTE]

Hannum was Wilt's coach in the '64 season, too. Take a look at Wilt's numbers, en route to leading that inept roster to the Finals. Even Hannum had to have Wilt dominate offensively.

[QUOTE=PHILA][URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d0WRHLcvMY#t=15m45s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d0WRHLcvMY#t=15m45s[/URL]


[I]Philadelphia Daily News - Jun 2, 1983

So, Billy Cunningham was asked, en route home from sweeping Los Angeles, what would he have said if President Reagan had called? "I would've told him, No. 1, that I voted for him," the 76ers' coach replied. "No. 2, I would've told him that this team, given what they've gone through and what they've accomplished, is a great example of what America is all about." Their last title had come in the spring of '67, in the Cow Palace in San Francisco. "I was there," said Dr. Stanley Lorber, one of the team physicians. "It was exciting, but it was nothing like this. That team, with Wilt, pretty much expected to win. They hadn't gone through the same tribulations. "I spent some time with Wilt this time, and I was startled by what he said to me on the phone after Game 1. He said, without hesitation, that the Lakers would not win a game, that they couldn't do it with a center who doesn't play at both ends consistently."[/I][/QUOTE]

You are simply amazing...

:applause: :applause:

BTW, how come we never read about the fact that Wilt played with SEVERAL injuries in the '68 ECF's, and that he was NOTICEABLY LIMPING from game two on? Nope, all we get is that Wilt had a terrible game six (20 points and 27 rebounds, even on horrible shooting.)

Then, when Kareem has a sprained ankle, he can't play in ONE damned game.

Or, how about Wilt playing in OT with a broken wrist in game four of the '72 Finals...and then dominating game five of that series (and also playing with a badly sprained wrist on his other hand.)?

BUT, Kareem misses CHUNKS of TWO seasons with a broken hand.

Or, what about Wilt in his 69-70 season...and coming back WAY ahead of schedule following maor knee surgery...so that his TEAM would have a chance to win a title. AND, then putting up a 23-24 .625 series, and basically on one leg?