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[QUOTE=fpliii]I'm going to get to 68 and 66 in successive threads...do you want the complete box scores for 69? if you're only interested in box scores and not the articles I could probably find them pretty quickly (one minor issue with the LA Times is they tend to omit minutes played)[/QUOTE]
I'm interested in both, but the full box scores for '69 would be REALLY GREAT!
[QUOTE=oolalaa]I'm interested in both, but the full box scores for '69 would be REALLY GREAT![/QUOTE]
sorry it took so long:
[url]http://www.filehosting.org/file/details/368288/1969_Finals.zip[/url]
I was feeling generous, so I got you the articles as well :cheers:
I've already long had the information on this, as well as every Final of the Russell era, having already done this, so I already have everything I need. But it's between Havlicek and Russell, this being the last Final in which Russell was a candidate for Finals MVP. I did a write on this about two years ago elsewhere. The '68 FMVP is Havlicek, with Russell a close second. Had it gone to a member of the winning team, he would have won it in '69 as well.
[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]I've already long had the information on this, as well as every Final of the Russell era, having already done this, so I already have everything I need. But it's between Havlicek and Russell, this being the last Final in which Russell was a candidate for Finals MVP. I did a write on this about two years ago elsewhere. The '68 FMVP is Havlicek, with Russell a close second. Had it gone to a member of the winning team, he would have won it in '69 as well.[/QUOTE]
Do you feel that Havlicek should have won the award in 69, or are you fine with West winning? Are there any other seasons (before or after the award's inception) where you feel a player on the losing side should have won Finals MVP?
[QUOTE=fpliii]I don't really want to make this a Wilt vs Russell thread though[/QUOTE]
Already a tired subject as it is, as it always involves people's agendas.
[QUOTE=fpliii]Do you feel that Havlicek should have won the award in 69, or are you fine with West winning?[/QUOTE]
I said "had it gone to a member of the winning team" Havlicek would have won it. As far as being fine with West winning, it doesn't really matter to me, as it had no bearing whatsoever upon my life, deriving no benefit from either player winning. I am neither a Celtic nor Laker fan, so I have no affiliation to nor emotional ties with either franchise.
[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]Already a tired subject as it is, as it always involves people's agendas.[/QUOTE]
haha I wasn't trying to make it about Wilt, was just asking him a quick follow up question for something else
Havlicek in '68.
If there was a playoff MVP, though, I think I would have gone with Russell. He played his greatest playoff series against Chamberlain that season.
West in '69, even on a losing team. One of the greatest scoring Finals of all-time, and a game seven of 42-13-12. Ultimately his coach cost him his first ring.
[QUOTE=fpliii]sorry it took so long:
[url]http://www.filehosting.org/file/details/368288/1969_Finals.zip[/url]
I was feeling generous, so I got you the articles as well :cheers:[/QUOTE]
YOU are the BEST :applause: Really appreciate it.
I'll read over the '68 Finals articles soon, and let you know who I think is deserving of the FMVP.
[QUOTE=oolalaa]YOU are the BEST :applause: Really appreciate it.
I'll read over the '68 Finals articles soon, and let you know who I think is deserving of the FMVP.[/QUOTE]
np
for late games played in LA we're missing minutes played: The Globe only carried basic scores for those nights (since the paper was likely close to going to press when the games ended), and unfortunately the Times didn't keep track of that stat for another few years...my apologies, but the rest of the info should be complete (and the articles are very interesting)
you'd mentioned 66 (which we'll get to after this year and the 67 Finals voting is complete), are there any other years you're interested in?
[QUOTE=fpliii]some of them might be, but I got mine from ProQuest (a subscription service that I got free from my university...finished up my MS in June, but I believe I have access until early January); I'm sure you could sign up, but I think it's much more expensive for an individual than for an institution
they have complete archives for the Boston Globe, Chicago Tribune, LA Times, Washington Post, NY Times, though I think only the last two are available on Google
if you have a topic of interest I can do some research for you though (the turnaround time depends on whether you have exact dates or not, and the extent of the data you need)[/QUOTE]
How did those papers do for non-Finals coverage in the 60s and 70s? Over the last couple of years I've VERY slowly started to compile the game-by-game playoffs stats for players. Right now all I've got done or semi-done are Jordan, Bird, and Magic, but I'm only getting what I can get from Basketball-Reference. Obviously they don't have full boxscores pre-1985 ( or is 1986?).
Reason I ask is because I'm curious whether or not BBR uses that same ProQuest site or a similar service, or if they're getting there boxscores some other way, since they only have FGM, FTM/FTA, and points for games from the 60s, 70s, and early 80s.
I was trying to just use Google News last week to find complete boxscores and write-ups for some of Bird and Magic's early career playoff games and couldn't find anything. Of course I'm not very good using Google News.
[QUOTE=KG215]How did those papers do for non-Finals coverage in the 60s and 70s? Over the last couple of years I've VERY slowly started to compile the game-by-game playoffs stats for players. Right now all I've got done or semi-done are Jordan, Bird, and Magic, but I'm only getting what I can get from Basketball-Reference. Obviously they don't have full boxscores pre-1985 ( or is 1986?).
Reason I ask is because I'm curious whether or not BBR uses that same ProQuest site or a similar service, or if they're getting there boxscores some other way, since they only have FGM, FTM/FTA, and points for games from the 60s, 70s, and early 80s.
I was trying to just use Google News last week to find complete boxscores and write-ups for some of Bird and Magic's early career playoff games and couldn't find anything. Of course I'm not very good using Google News.[/QUOTE]
I haven't delved that deeply into non-Finals coverage in general, so if you give me a series to investigate I can look into it and check.
Basketball Reference got its box scores from a guy named Dick Pfander (you can read more about the acquisition [URL="http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/15575/how-basketball-reference-got-every-box-score"]here[/URL]). Basically, they're basic box scores for the most part. I've done some work helping the guys at [url]http://nbastats.prv.pl[/url] fill in the gaps, and we've filled in as much of Magic's box scores as is possible at the moment (I'm not sure if I still have the original sources saved, though). Some information, like offensive rebounds, blocks, steals, turnovers, weren't always noted in the box scores, so unless the guy had a big number in one of those departments you're probably out of luck.
The problem with ProQuest is, as I noted, licenses are extremely expensive for non-institutional subscriptions. Universities and some major public libraries have access, but that's about it.
If you have a topic of interest I can see what turns up: I have complete access to the archives for the LA Times, Boston Globe, Chicago Tribune, Washington Post, NY Times (as well as some other papers, none are really of note for basketball research though). If you want to do some research of your own and don't have a major library nearby, you have three options:
• Google News (they've taken a number of archives offline in recent years though, and still others have become pay-per-view)
• [url]http://paperofrecord.hypernet.ca[/url] has complete access to the Sporting News archives (they covered the NBA in detail starting in the late 60s; the interface is pretty brutal though, and they're hit or miss for the most part)
• [url]http://newspaperarchive.com[/url] has a massive number of resources, but you have to subscribe for three months at a time
Other than those, you can post on the APBR message boards with a request, but there is again no guarantee you'll get a response. Elias Sports Bureau (official stat company for the NBA and most other leagues) actually has complete statistical records game-by-game for each player in league history (official stats), though the box scores are lost (everything is in the form of linescores). Here's their contact information:
[url]http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=9897048[/url]
Let me know what you need done and I'll see what I can do. Depending on the nature of the request I might be able to get back to you pretty quickly (as I did for oolalaa above), though the amount of time is a function of scale, information availability, and accessibility.
[QUOTE=jlauber]Havlicek in '68.
If there was a playoff MVP, though, I think I would have gone with Russell. He played his greatest playoff series against Chamberlain that season.
[B]West in '69, even on a losing team. One of the greatest scoring Finals of all-time, and a game seven of 42-13-12. Ultimately his coach cost him his first ring.[/B][/QUOTE]
Wilt's FT-shooting in game 7 also cost both Wilt and West one ring, he went 4-13 from the FT-line in that game 7 and they only lost with 2 points.
It's a shame that West's 43-13-12 game didn't give him his first ring, GOAT performance.
[QUOTE=fpliii]I haven't delved that deeply into non-Finals coverage in general, so if you give me a series to investigate I can look into it and check.
Basketball Reference got its box scores from a guy named Dick Pfander (you can read more about the acquisition [URL="http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/15575/how-basketball-reference-got-every-box-score"]here[/URL]). Basically, they're basic box scores for the most part. I've done some work helping the guys at [url]http://nbastats.prv.pl[/url] fill in the gaps, and we've filled in as much of Magic's box scores as is possible at the moment (I'm not sure if I still have the original sources saved, though). Some information, like offensive rebounds, blocks, steals, turnovers, weren't always noted in the box scores, so unless the guy had a big number in one of those departments you're probably out of luck.
The problem with ProQuest is, as I noted, licenses are extremely expensive for non-institutional subscriptions. Universities and some major public libraries have access, but that's about it.
If you have a topic of interest I can see what turns up: I have complete access to the archives for the LA Times, Boston Globe, Chicago Tribune, Washington Post, NY Times (as well as some other papers, none are really of note for basketball research though). If you want to do some research of your own and don't have a major library nearby, you have three options:
[QUOTE=KG215]Appreciate all the info. For now, it'd be any non-Finals playoff series pre 1985 (so 1980-1985) for Magic and Bird. Once I get ready to move on to players like Russell, Wilt, Baylor, West, Robertson, etc. it'd be them, too, but that won't be anytime soon and I don't want to straddle you with that much work.
I've got bits and pieces for each from those series. For example, the 1984 WCSF all I'm missing is rebounds for Magic in games 1, 2, and 3; and in the 1984 WCF I'm missing rebounds in games 1, 2, 4. Go back to 1980, 1981, and 1982 and all I have is points, FGM, and FTM/FTA. There's one or two games I have rebounds and/or assists in non-Finals series, but there's still a lot of gaps to be filled.
If you want to PM me your e-mail address, I could send you my spreadsheet, and you could have a look at what I've done. So far it's only been four players (Jordan, Kobe, Bird, and most of Magic). I had about 10-12 players started/done on my old laptop before it crapped out on me and I wasn't able to recover the file.[/QUOTE]
regarding Magic, as I noted we completed as much as we could based on the ProQuest database...here's what we have:
[url]http://gorba77.w.interia.pl/01NBA/07bonus/GameLogsJohnson.xls[/url]
as for Bird, e-mail me what you have at [email]fpliii@stanford.edu[/email] (note the 3 i's) and I'll see what I can do; put "ISH:" in the subject so it doesn't get filtered to spam