Where do you rank McHale among all time PFs?

[QUOTE=BoutPractice]GimmeThat > In theory what you posted makes sense.

In reality, McHale was great at creating his own shot AND finishing, and he mostly did so quickly and efficiently: one dribble, fake, finish.[/QUOTE]

I thought of that possibility.
but looking at his stats. and the fact that Larry Bird never even won a scoring title. If he truly was the unstoppable force. I don't understand why he didn't average more shots for more years.

Again, I think his size played a part to it all.
Which might explain the limited amount of prime years.

[QUOTE=GimmeThat]I thought of that possibility.
but looking at his stats. and the fact that Larry Bird never even won a scoring title. If he truly was the unstoppable force. I don't understand why he didn't average more shots for more years.

Again, I think his size played a part to it all.
Which might explain the limited amount of prime years.[/QUOTE]


[B]Ofc that having Larry Bird as the #1 option and best player helps a ton, plus that great team they had in 1986 as well... But we say he was unstoppable (in his peak) in a sense that he could simply destroy any type of player in the low-post more often than not, sometimes even more than one player. Barkley even said McHale was the most difficult to stop, for example.
Dude had all types of moves, really long arms, was very agile, great finisher in numerous ways, had a jumper with range and was shooting over 80% from the FT line. But yea, ofc that it helps a lot to have Bird taking most attention and making some crazy passes, while having those other teammates to space the floor and demand attention as well while playmaking, especially since McHale was not a great passer, it helps to have the space to take some open jumpers as well, a great passing team even to "influence" him also.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdtgUOiWHJg[/url]
McHale was just a great scorer at his best, and much more than that too.

I don't know what you mean by size, but McHale had the perfect body to do what he was doing (incredible post-moves), 6'10'' w/o shoes, lanky and long with a huge wingspan, and remember that back in the day they didn't really keep track of players' weights also.

Also, he really started to peak in 1986 but due to injury was never quite the same since 1987.
[/B]

[QUOTE=JellyBean]For me, the greatest power forwards are:

1. Karl Malone
2. Tim Duncan
3. Charles Barkley
4. Bob Pettit
5. Kevin McHale
6. Kevin Garnett
7. Dirk Nowitzki
8. Elvin "Big E" Hayes
9. Dennis Rodman
10. Dave DeBusschere

*LeBron James is in a whole different category of players. He is a forward that plays like a guard. So I am not including him in this section.[/QUOTE]

:facepalm :roll:

Duncan was the greatest PF ever after 6 years. It took Malone like 18 years and a top 5 PG to get 2 MVP's;

It took Duncan 6 years to get 2 MVP's, two chips and 2 FMVP's.

[QUOTE=JellyBean]For me, the greatest power forwards are:

1. Karl Malone
2. Tim Duncan
3. Charles Barkley
4. Bob Pettit
5. Kevin McHale
6. Kevin Garnett
7. Dirk Nowitzki
8. Elvin "Big E" Hayes
9. Dennis Rodman
10. Dave DeBusschere

*LeBron James is in a whole different category of players. He is a forward that plays like a guard. So I am not including him in this section.[/QUOTE]

[B]Wow, McHale above KG and Dirk???? I wouldn't even put him above Hayes tbh... As far as peaks you may have an argument and even so not really a great one, as far as careers I can't see it in any world.[/B]

[QUOTE=BoutPractice]People usually have Duncan as the greatest PF of all time... then there's the giant mess of trying to rank KG, Dirk, Barkley and Malone (lately it seems KG and Dirk are more often than not placed above Barkley and Malone due to the spectacular second half of their careers, but it's still close enough to be debatable). Throw in Bob Pettit somewhere and you've got 6 PFs in the 25ish greatest players of all time.

But where do you rank Kevin McHale, who used to be seen as one of the all-time greatest at the position? Is he your next on the list? How would you round out your top 10 all time PF list?

Just to set the context, Kevin McHale is a [B]7 time all-star[/B], 3 time champion, [B]2 time 6th man of the year,[/B] 3[B] time member of the all defensive first team,[/B] and widely acknowledged as one of the (if not the) greatest low post scorers in the history of the game, including [B]a year scoring 26 ppg on 66 TS%[/B] (the words "second option" don't do him justice, and he probably would have been the first option on most teams... certainly he would be on most teams today).[/QUOTE]
No offense to McHale, but the bolded should hardly be arguments for a top 4-7 PF ever.

[QUOTE=Nowitness]:facepalm :roll:

Duncan was the greatest PF ever after 6 years. It took Malone like 18 years and a top 5 PG to get 2 MVP's;

It took Duncan 6 years to get 2 MVP's, two chips and 2 FMVP's.[/QUOTE]

Wow, this guy is actually making some sense. :applause:

[QUOTE=kshutts1]No offense to McHale, but the bolded should hardly be arguments for a top 4-7 PF ever.[/QUOTE]
Just providing context, if that's what you conclude from those achievements then fine.

I do think the all-defensive first teams matter, though. We often forget that McHale was more than just a scorer.

[QUOTE=BoutPractice]Just providing context, if that's what you conclude from those achievements then fine.

I do think the all-defensive first teams matter, though. We often forget that McHale was more than just a scorer.[/QUOTE]
I think it all matters, and I think he's a fabulous player. I just feel like you could, very easily, put the qualifying word "only" before each number, and no one would argue otherwise, you know?

Only 7 all-star games.
Only 3 All D
Only .. etc.

I mean... compared to Pau Gasol? Yeah, it all matters in a big way. Comparing him to the second or third tier of PFs? It gets comical.

The top 15 power forwards divide pretty well into categories I think.

Franchise players: Barkley, Malone, Duncan, Dirk, KG, Pettit

Near Franchise Players: Hayes, Webber, Haywood, Gasol

Elite complimentary Players: McHale, DeBusschere, Rodman, Maurice Lucas, Gus Johnson


The first group stands out, after that it comes down to what you value more, individual greatness or team greatness (as a major piece obviously)

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]The top 15 power forwards divide pretty well into categories I think.

Franchise players: Barkley, Malone, Duncan, Dirk, KG, Pettit

Near Franchise Players: Hayes, Webber, Haywood, [B]Gasol[/B]

Elite complimentary Players: McHale, DeBusschere, Rodman, Maurice Lucas, Gus Johnson


The first group stands out, after that it comes down to what you value more, individual greatness or team greatness (as a major piece obviously)[/QUOTE]
Is that Pau Gasol? What are you seeing that I'm not? Maybe I've got a case of recency bias?
Was Spencer Haywood's career long enough to be included?

I'd rather have Elton Brand over Pau Gasol, even though his best years are 2-3 years shorter than Pau.

But I think both of those players are in the "forgotten" tier. We may remember them in twenty years, but otherwise they'll be "forgotten greats". Good enough for us to remember, but not good enough for history to remember.

And I knew I forgot some players, so I did a quick google search..

Jerry Lucas
Dolph Schayes
Gallatin

Those were all names I was trying to think of. Where are they ranked? Lucas and Schayes in particular.

Edit: This post is still in relation to Pau Gasol.

[QUOTE=kshutts1]Is that Pau Gasol? What are you seeing that I'm not? Maybe I've got a case of recency bias?
Was Spencer Haywood's career long enough to be included?

I'd rather have Elton Brand over Pau Gasol, even though his best years are 2-3 years shorter than Pau.

But I think both of those players are in the "forgotten" tier. We may remember them in twenty years, but otherwise they'll be "forgotten greats". Good enough for us to remember, but not good enough for history to remember.[/QUOTE]

The difference between Elton Brand and Pau Gasol (other than Gasol being better as an overall player) is that you'll get to see Gasol playing in several ESPN classics/the most frequently watched Internet videos on historical basketball, etc., including that famous game 7 where many viewers will conclude that he outplayed Kobe. And because Kobe's legend will only grow after he retires given his broad popularity and fanatical legion of followers, Gasol will benefit...

You rarely "forget" someone who played a key role in 3 different Finals. You definitely forget the Elton Brand types if you're just a casual fan.

[QUOTE=BoutPractice][B]The difference between Elton Brand and Pau Gasol (other than Gasol being better as an overall player) is that you'll get to see Gasol playing in several ESPN classics/the most frequently watched Internet videos on historical basketball, etc., including that famous game 7 where many viewers will conclude that he outplayed Kobe.[/B] And because Kobe's legend will only grow after he retires given his broad popularity and fanatical legion of followers, Gasol will benefit...

You rarely "forget" someone who played a key role in 3 different Finals. You definitely forget the Elton Brand types if you're just a casual fan.[/QUOTE]
Good point. Doesn't make Gasol better, though. Gotta love the media!

He is [b]NOT[/b] clearly behind the others in skills/impact;

BUT the fact that he was 2nd option behind Larry Bird hurts his standing.



Barkley has said that McHale was the most difficult person for him to play against. The guy with his dangly arms was automatic from the post.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdtgUOiWHJg[/url]


Anyway, it's hard to rank these guys. They're all amazing and impactful in their own way. It would honestly depend on what your team needs.

i.e, if you already have a great distributor, pick Malone. If you have all around good players pick Duncan. If your players suck, pick Barkley. etc etc.

[QUOTE=played0ut]He is [b]NOT[/b] clearly behind the others in skills/impact;

BUT the fact that he was 2nd option behind Larry Bird hurts his standing.



Barkley has said that McHale was the most difficult person for him to play against. The guy with his dangly arms was automatic from the post.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdtgUOiWHJg[/url]


Anyway, it's hard to rank these guys. They're all amazing and impactful in their own way. It would honestly depend on what your team needs.

i.e, if you already have a great distributor, pick Malone. If you have all around good players pick Duncan. [B][U] If your players suck, pick Barkley[/U][/B]. etc etc.[/QUOTE]

[B]Yup :applause: , Prime Barkley Was Like a Point-Powerforward. He Makes Scrubs Look Like All Stars.[/B]