If Irving/Waiters were as good as some would have you believe, the Cav's would have been a bit better than the rabble of last season.
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If Irving/Waiters were as good as some would have you believe, the Cav's would have been a bit better than the rabble of last season.
Beal and Waiters.
PGs are overrated
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]Wall also had the better team around him. Also keep in mind that these numbers (including the W-L record), includes a game where Kyrie played under 10 minutes before getting injured. If you exclude that game, the series is actually 3-2.
Kyrie has shot almost 48% [I][B]from three [/B][/I]playing against Wall.
We're talking 50/48/94 splits. Wall's at 42/33/83. That's a little more of a disparity than 2.8 turnovers in 37 minutes as compared to 3.2 turnovers in 31 minutes.[/QUOTE]
Not a team that was much better, by any means.
And no, it really isn't. Wall gave the Cavs less opportunities for easy, transition buckets, while, giving his team 8-12 points more on dimes. Add the 2 steal difference as well, where he gives his team a transition opportunity and takes away offensive possessions, to boot.
[QUOTE=G-train]If Irving/Waiters were as good as some would have you believe, the Cav's would have been a bit better than the rabble of last season.[/QUOTE]
Basically, as well.
[QUOTE=qrich]Not a team that was much better, by any means.
[/QUOTE]
Wizards were way better than the Cavs last year dude
One team almost made the ecf while the other was in the lottery
[QUOTE=qrich]Not a team that was much better, by any means.
And no, it really isn't. Wall gave the Cavs less opportunities for easy, transition buckets, while, giving his team 8-12 points more on dimes. Add the 2 steal difference as well, where he gives his team a transition opportunity and takes away offensive possessions, to boot.
Basically, as well.[/QUOTE]
So now we're going to act like Ariza/Gortat/Nene isn't a damn good starting frontline, not to mention veteran leadership (Cavs had the youngest regular rotation in the league last season).
And, again... if you take away the game where Kyrie played just a few minutes, the numbers aren't even close. He'd be averaging like 27 points on 50/48/97 with 7 assists. The numbers really aren't particularly close. That's totally insane efficiency. :oldlol:
But, yeah... the additional 0.7 turnovers per 36 that he averages in those games make all the difference. I do wonder how Kyrie scores so easily against Wall's impenetrable defense, though.
Funny, Kyrie averaged far less turnovers per game last year. When it comes to the season statistics, no one wants to talk about turnovers. However, in the h2h matchups, that's the only thing that matters.
Funny how that works.
Kyrie / Waiters because of LeBron. Featuring Love.
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]So now we're going to act like Ariza/Gortat/Nene isn't a damn good starting frontline, not to mention veteran leadership (Cavs had the youngest regular rotation in the league last season).
And, again... if you take away the game where Kyrie played just a few minutes, the numbers aren't even close. He'd be averaging like 27 points on 50/48/97 with 7 assists. The numbers really aren't particularly close. That's totally insane efficiency. :oldlol:
But, yeah... the additional 0.7 turnovers per 36 that he averages in those games make all the difference. I do wonder how Kyrie scores so easily against Wall's impenetrable defense, though.
Funny, Kyrie averaged far less turnovers per game last year. When it comes to the season statistics, no one wants to talk about turnovers. However, in the h2h matchups, that's the only thing that matters.
Funny how that works.[/QUOTE]
Where'd I say it wasn't good? I said weren't "that much better". Compared to the top overall pick, the oh-so great Thompson, Andy V, Spencer Hawes, & Deng, guys who Cav fans wouldn't/didn't shut up about, no it isn't that much better.
Taking that single game away, pops up his assists to just under 7, but also thrusts his turnovers to around 3.8, as well. But hey, forcing turnovers isn't a defensive asset, I guess.
He shot a higher percentage, as a player that is considered to be better as a scorer should, especially when they "have no competent" teammates, as is the statement. Wall focuses more on playing inside a team concept, on both ends of the floor, and isn't known for his scoring, as he does a lot well.
Yes, he averaged whopping 0.9 less turnovers, in a minute less, but also averaged 2.7 less assists. The assist-per-turnover difference 2.45 v 2.25.
Funny how Wall shot around the same from the field, when it comes to season statistics, no one wants to talk about field goal percentage. However, in H2H matchups, that's all that matters.
I love how people keep making assumptions about cavs players without having a clue what they are talking about :roll: i watched the cavs play 2 games last year im a expert!
[QUOTE=El Gato Negro]I love how people keep making assumptions about cavs players without having a clue what they are talking about :roll:[/QUOTE]
Care to elaborate?
[IMG]http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2013/1017/nba_a_wall-beal_mb_576x324.jpg[/IMG]
JW: * laughing* "Ayo BB, someone on ISH actually started a thread on comparing us vs Kyrie and Waiters."
BB: *surprised* "Well, my n!gga, mental health is a serious pandemic in America these days"
Wizards also had Nene and Gortat who are legit all around bigs. You have to give Kyrie credit for playing with such a bum team around him
[QUOTE=qrich]Where'd I say it wasn't good? I said weren't "that much better". Compared to the top overall pick, the oh-so great Thompson, Andy V, Spencer Hawes, & Deng, guys who Cav fans wouldn't/didn't shut up about, no it isn't that much better.[/quote]
Let me address this point first...
Deng was awful in his stint in Cleveland. I was pretty open about that. And, he only played 40 games for the Cavs, most of which was spent protecting his body for his impending free agency and constantly throwing the team under the bus to the media.
His tenure was awful. When Deng wasn't out there moping and limping around, the other 42 games were stated by a combination of Alonzo Gee and Earl Clark. I wonder... is Earl Clark still in the league?
Hawes played 25 games for the Cavs, where -- for the first time since Kyrie was drafted -- he actually had a competent outside shooter next to him in the lineup. However, when it came to defense and rebounding? Different story all together.
There's a good reason the Cavs made no attempt to re-sign either of these guys.
The "oh-so great Tristan Thompson" had an admittedly down year last season. He didn't progress the way I had hoped. However, when having to defend him against attacks that he's a "scrub" and "useless," I will every time. He's just 23 and he's better suited in his coming role than he was in his previous one.
That doesn't mean he was effective as a starter last season at PF. He was not. Having him and Varejao starting for the majority of the season essentially killed any notion of floor spacing and crowded the lane for our talented slashers (Kyrie/Dion)... that crowded lane was made even worse by having the wing position occupied by non-shooters Clark/Gee/Deng over the course of the year.
Then you had the Bynum disaster, wherein we spent the first 30 games trying to make a guy who is now out of the league the focal point of our offensive sets. To say it was a disaster is being kind.
Actually, following Bynum's departure, we went from a team 12 games under .500 to essentially a .500 team for the rest of the season.
On top of all these issues with personnel, you had the Mike Brown offense at work. I'm not the guy who kills MB at every turn, but he did not handle this situation well at all and the players did not respond to his style of coaching.
Couple that with the youngest, least experienced rotation in the NBA? You've got trouble. I was surprised we won 33 games, to be completely honest. That was actually +12 from the year before, one of the best W-L turnarounds in the entire league.
[QUOTE=qrich]Taking that single game away, pops up his assists to just under 7, but also thrusts his turnovers to around 3.8, as well. But hey, forcing turnovers isn't a defensive asset, I guess.
He shot a higher percentage, as a player that is considered to be better as a scorer should, especially when they "have no competent" teammates, as is the statement. Wall focuses more on playing inside a team concept, on both ends of the floor, and isn't known for his scoring, as he does a lot well. [/quote]
Let's just put the numbers out there and people can come to their own conclusions. No need to parse our words, here.
In the five full games that both guys played the over the course of their respective careers, here are the numbers:
[B][U][SIZE="4"]Kyrie Irving [/SIZE][/U][/B]
[B]25.4 points[/B]
[B][I]FG: 50.0% (42-84)
3PT: 48.3% (10-21)
FT: 94.4% (33-35)[/I][/B]
[B]6.8 assists[/B]
[B]2.6 rebounds[/B]
[B]3.8 turnovers[/B]
[I][B]in 34.6 minutes[/B][/I] [I](173:03 court time)[/I]
[B][SIZE="4"][U]John Wall [/U][/SIZE][/B]
[B]20.2 points[/B]
[I][B]FG: 42.2%(35-83)
3PT: 33.3% (5-15)
FT: 81.2% (26-32)[/B][/I]
[B]9.2 assists[/B]
[B]3.8 rebounds[/B]
[B]2.2 turnovers[/B]
[I][B]in 37.6 minutes (188:30 court time)[/B][/I]
They're two different players with two different skillsets, but we both know that 25+ points on 50/48/94 on under 35 minutes a game is totally nuts. Toss in the 6.8 assists and those are LeBron-like numbers.
The funny part about this whole thing is that I haven't said one time who I thought was better last year or who I think is the better player. My response was to those who acted like it was/is a laughable endeavor to even make the comparison.
And, the reason I went straight to the head-to-head numbers was in response to your post that Wall's defense "alone" is clearly what separated him from Irving and Waiters. First of all, Waiters is not a bad defender. Secondly, Kyrie has made it a habit of torching Wall.
Do I think that Wall had a better all-around season last year? Yeah, probably. Do I think Irving is the better player going forward? No doubt in my mind.
Do I think anyone who honestly believes, even based on last year, that these guys weren't close is insane? Yeah, pretty much.
I guess we'll find out soon enough.
[QUOTE=ROCSteady][IMG]http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2013/1017/nba_a_wall-beal_mb_576x324.jpg[/IMG]
JW: * laughing* "Ayo BB, someone on ISH actually started a thread on comparing us vs Kyrie and Waiters."
BB: *surprised* "Well, my n!gga, mental health is a serious pandemic in America these days"[/QUOTE]
I think end of season this should be revisited. I would definitely take Irving over Wall and I think Waiters is going to have a breakout year under Lebrons Wing. He already stated that Waiters can be Cavs version of Dwade.
Kyrie and Waiters, though it is close.
Kyrie and waiters have more individual talent
Wall and beal are much more complementary
Overall wall and beal bring more to a team as pg/sg
But: I'd want kyrie and waiters on the condition that waiters would be down to play as 6th man
This is all in a vacuum of course, the rest of the team matters. Namely wall's lack of shooting changes this