Coach Thibbs: "When Jordan was playing..."

Today's defensive 3 seconds rule requires defenders to stay out of the lane, unless they are within "armslength" of an opponent.. [url]http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html[/url]

The original rule from 1982 was different, and ALLOWED defenders to camp in the paint: ([url]http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html[/url])

[INDENT][B]1981-82[/B]
"[I]Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player adjacent to paint)"[/I].[/INDENT]

So just by substituting the rule's own parenthetical reference, the rule translates EXACTLY to: "Defender on player adjacent to the paint is allowed in defensive 3 second area."


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b209aeddf6bfaaa9fcaed8eea3c72c65.gif[/IMG]


[b]in this clip, Klay Thompson's dad (#43 in the middle of lane) would get a tech after 3 seconds in today's game because his man is out of "armslength".... but back then, he was legal because his man was "adjacent to the paint", which was the only requirement at the time - notice how there is no need for Thompson to tippy-toe in and out of the paint.
[/B]

in previous eras, guys didn't have to worry about staying out of the lane or tippy-toeing - the 3 seconds rule was very simple back then: as long as their man was "adjacent to the paint", defenders could stay in the lane... so usually, they could camp in the lane for the entire possession because the paint is huge, and "adjacent to the paint" covers a ton of ground... Furthermore, "adjacent to the paint" could mean right next to the paint, a few feet outside the paint, or all the way out to the 3-point line - [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695139&postcount=1][u]defenders routinely camped in the paint while their man was behind the 3-point line[/u][/url].

contrastingly, today's rule makes sure defenders can physically touch their man to stay in the lane, by requiring defenders be within "armslength" of an opponent - since players that are outside, or "adjacent to the paint", are out of armslength to defenders inside the paint, players in today's game are not allowed to stay in the lane if their man is outside the paint.
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[QUOTE=Hoopz2332]3ball is about to spam:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Nailed it

[QUOTE=J Shuttlesworth]Nailed it[/QUOTE]


:oldlol:

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[B][SIZE="4"]Michael Jordan versus Reggie Lewis (starting SG vs. starting SG)[/SIZE]
[/B]

[B]Jordan 41 points 1990[/B]... [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=519CMlXJmTg&t=0m15s[/url]

[B]Jordan 38 points 1988[/B]... [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PTB13ZJIGE[/url]

[B]Jordan 35 points 1990[/B]... [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozZwNeK6chQ[/url]

[B]Jordan 45 points 1990[/B]... [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPNNdJLfKEg[/url]

[B]Jordan 39 points 1991[/B]... [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOHWXRw9UkU[/url]

[B]Jordan 44 points 1992[/B]... [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8S8cXV9E-Y[/url]
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[quote=Hoopz2332]
3ball is about to spam[/quote]
[QUOTE=J Shuttlesworth]Nailed it[/QUOTE]He's actually right about this though. Offensive efficiency has been pretty much the same since the 80s. The style of play has changed with the rules, but teams don't have a harder time scoring than they did in the past.

[QUOTE=Hoopz2332]3ball is about to spam:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
:lol

[QUOTE=3ball]One coach giving his opinion on one specific type of play is not thread-worthy.

[/QUOTE]
but you given yours is?:kobe:

[QUOTE=Dr.J4ever]

""When Jordan was playing," Chicago coach Tom Thibodeau said, "if he was isolated at 12 feet or at the elbow, you had to keep your 'big' on the weak side. There was no way you could get him across the lane. Now that you can bring your big over to the strong side, elbow isolations become jump-shot plays. And there's usually four shooters on the floor, at a minimum, and some teams have five." [/QUOTE]

No offense, but what the f*ck is Thibs talking about? Seriously. Is he saying that teams never set their bigs to help on Jordan when he had the ball? This actually sounds plausible to people? :wtf:

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]No offense, but what the f*ck is Thibs talking about? Seriously. Is he saying that teams never set their bigs to help on Jordan when he had the ball? This actually sounds plausible to people? :wtf:[/QUOTE]He's saying they were further out of position, so when they came over to help, they were too late to cut off his path to basket.

[QUOTE=Inactive]He's saying they were further out of position, so when they came over to help, they were too late to cut off his path to basket.[/QUOTE]

Prime example of why that's bullshit:

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gif[/IMG]

Jordan had to beat 2 traps/doubles (including one where the Knicks sent their PF or one of their 'bigs' to cut off his baseline drive)... only for him to be met at the basket by a 7 ft shot blocker because there was no 3-sec rule.

And if you watch the whole possession, the Bulls had to beat a full court trap zone to even get the ball past half court:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=330HeLlv52U[/url]

So again... what the f*ck is Thibs talking about? :confusedshrug:

ISH posters > Thibs in defensive basketball

He's stating what seems to be obvious but truth is most touters of the superior physical 80's/90's don't understand.

The opportunities to get to the rim and finish off isolation plays are much more limited. A physical defender like say a GP being able to dig his hand/elbow into your hip vs a wall of of defenders strongside which is more effective in stopping an individual player from getting to the rim on drives?

The answer SHOULD be obvious, but some people are just stubborn and/or dense. This doesn't necessarily mean Jordan had it easier or his impact on the game from a scoring standpoint would be less today, just his numbers and efficiency.

37 ppg on 54% from a wing player is highly unlikely in this era, especially if that wing player is on a bad team that the defense does not have to respect like the 80's BUlls. The defensive rules are such that it is easier for the defense to force the player that initiates the play to pass as opposed to taking it all the way and finishing.

Jordan would still devastate defenses though by using the MIDDLE PICK AND ROLL. This is really the only way a player can create enough scoring opportunities at the rim to score on HIGH volume and HIGH efficiency (27-30+ ppg, 50+ FG. BY having two shooters in each corner and forcing the big to have to come out higher on the floor (or if he doesn't have a full head of steam towards him sitting in the paint) you can counter the defense being able to load up strong side.

Perfect example is 05-11 Wade, cat quick, super explosive, agile, great handle, great leaper of 1 or two feet, superb body control, great touch around the basket.

Jordan would post 05-11 Wade like seasons regularly in his prime in this era, except he would score 1-3 ppg more because of his superior, vertical jumpshooting and FT shooting.

Wade from 05-11 was 27/7/5 48%

Prime Jordan would be 29-30/6/6 51%

Peak 32/7/7 52%

[QUOTE=Akhenaten]He's stating what seems to be obvious but truth is most touters of the superior physical 80's/90's don't understand.

The opportunities to get to the rim and finish off isolation plays are much more limited. A physical defender like say a GP being able to dig his hand/elbow into your hip vs a wall of of defenders strongside which is more effective in stopping an individual player from getting to the rim on drives?

The answer SHOULD be obvious, but some people are just stubborn and/or dense. This doesn't necessarily mean Jordan had it easier or his impact on the game from a scoring standpoint would be less today, just his numbers and efficiency.

37 ppg on 54% from a wing player is highly unlikely in this era, especially if that wing player is on a bad team that the defense does not have to respect like the 80's BUlls. The defensive rules are such that it is easier for the defense to force the player that initiates the play to pass as opposed to taking it all the way and finishing.

Jordan would still devastate defenses though by using the MIDDLE PICK AND ROLL. This is really the only way a player can create enough scoring opportunities at the rim to score on HIGH volume and HIGH efficiency (27-30+ ppg, 50+ FG. BY having two shooters in each corner and forcing the big to have to come out higher on the floor (or if he doesn't have a full head of steam towards him sitting in the paint) you can counter the defense being able to load up strong side.

Perfect example is 05-11 Wade, cat quick, super explosive, agile, great handle, great leaper of 1 or two feet, superb body control, great touch around the basket.

Jordan would post 05-11 Wade like seasons regularly in his prime in this era, except he would score 1-3 ppg more because of his superior, vertical jumpshooting and FT shooting.

Wade from 05-11 was 27/7/5 48%

Prime Jordan would be 29-30/6/6 51%

Peak 32/7/7 52%[/QUOTE]


:applause:

[QUOTE=navy]ISH posters > Thibs in defensive basketball[/QUOTE]

Who's claiming that? I'm just asking for a thorough explanation from someone what exactly coach Thibs is trying to say. At face value, it doesn't make a lick of sense. But obviously since I'm missing the hidden genius of his statement, I'd love for someone to expand on it and maybe show me some game footage that backs it up.

I posted a clip that refutes the claims of someone's interpretations above... surely someone can do the same in reverse, yes? :confusedshrug:

I watched a 36 year old run down Kobe Bryant basically get any look he wanted last night. He just missed most of the shots, but they were great looks for the most part.

A 27 year old MJ would have completely torched it. Hell, a prime Kobe Bryant would have torched it, and he still had 16 in the first half.

With what I watched last night (Harden getting 32), a 27 year old Mike would have had 40 without breaking a sweat. And easily could/would if he chose have had more. So it's a total GTFO to anyone who thinks prime MJ would have a tough time today.