Re: Lebron "had no help" in Cleveland
[QUOTE=Simple Jack]A few things:
1. I don't think there was any debate about whether they were a good defensive team or not. What was argued however, and correctly, was that they weren't a talented team (either offensively or defensively). Talent isn't the same thing as chemistry....and they certainly had amazing chemistry. There isn't many players on that team, in those years (if any at all), that you'd be begging to have on your team for their defensive presence. It was a team effort, led by LeBron in 2009 and 2010.
2. So basically the games where LeBron played like absolute shit, they lost...and this is somehow proof of him being carried? And the games where he shot poorly but still put up good numbers, they won some, and lost some? And this is a surprise? LeBron was always commended for contributing to the game even if his shot wasn't falling...that's always been a positive about his game. And if we're ragging on players winning when they shoot poorly...are Kobe fans really the guys who should be emphasizing this point? Really?
3. You mention the drop-off after LeBron left and the injuries they suffered...but you fail to mention that i their 66 win season, a bunch of those guys missed substantial time as well (some at the same time). Shaq, Mo, Delonte, Z, etc...All those guys missed time, and the Cavaliers didn't miss a step. They were like 12-0 when Mo was out and beat some great teams during that stretch. None of those guys being injured had any effect on the team whatsoever. When Bron was out though, they lost nearly every single game (I think one season was like 0-8 iirc).
The Cavaliers won 66 games. 39-2 at home (1 shy of the NBA record for home-record set by the Celtics in the mid 80's). The second best player was Mo Williams. It would help to take a look at the comparable teams, throughout NBA history, that won at the rate that those Cavalier teams were winning at - and compare the talent. Those Cavalier teams, specifically the 66 win year, but also the 61 win year, were easily towards the very bottom in terms of talent, relative to other historical teams that were able to win at that rate.
A post by Kblaze on the topic that's especially relevant:[/QUOTE]
Both of you pretty much hit the nail on the head. Lebron played on some good teams, not talented teams. And everyone knows talent is what wins in the NBA (for the most part).
Bron in his last 2 years in Cleveland was as impactful on both sides of the floor as anyone in recent memory. It gets revised by his stans that he was carrying scrubs, which is not true. But he also wasn't playing with a true championship core.
Re: Lebron "had no help" in Cleveland
[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]He didn't have a reliable, consistent, star caliber supplemental help. But what he has had in 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014 and 2015 more than makes up for the fact. And in those 4 seasons of having legit superstar help ... he's 2 for 4 winning chips. We'll see what happens this year.[/QUOTE]
2014 shouldn't count if you know basketball.he is 2 for 3 by your logic.
Re: Lebron "had no help" in Cleveland
[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]He didn't have a reliable, consistent, star caliber supplemental help. But what he has had in 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014 and 2015 more than makes up for the fact. [B]And in those 4 seasons of having legit superstar help ... he's 2 for 4 winning chips[/B]. We'll see what happens this year.[/QUOTE]
He really only received superstar help for 2 of those seasons, 3 if you're counting only the 2013 regular season. Wade & Bosh were downright mediocre for most of the 2013 playoffs, and imo it'd be ridiculous to consider their production in 2014 to be of "superstar" quality
Re: Lebron "had no help" in Cleveland
This might be the goat thread. Nothing but the absolute truth. He had plenty of help. But the agenda has always been to prop up the bronze bandit as the lone ranger.
Re: Lebron "had no help" in Cleveland
We all witnessed the Cavs and we all experienced the playoffs. We don't need you copy/paste texts. We all know he had no help.
Re: Lebron "had no help" in Cleveland
[QUOTE=The Iron Fist]This might be the goat thread. Nothing but the absolute truth. [B]He had plenty of help[/B]. But the agenda has always been to prop up the bronze bandit as the lone ranger.[/QUOTE]
How many times in NBA history has someone won a title with a second option equivalent to Mo Williams? 3, maybe 4 times at most
Re: Lebron "had no help" in Cleveland
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]How many times in NBA history has someone won a title with a second option equivalent to Mo Williams? 3, maybe 4 times at most[/QUOTE]
He's either trolling or he's too dumb. Either way, his opinion doesn't matter.
Re: Lebron "had no help" in Cleveland
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]How many times in NBA history has someone won a title with a second option equivalent to Mo Williams? 3, maybe 4 times at most[/QUOTE]
Look, chief, we're not here to argue seblantics with you.
LeBron's had stacked teams for his entire career.
Period. End of story.
Re: Lebron "had no help" in Cleveland
[QUOTE=The Iron Fist]This might be the goat thread. Nothing but the absolute truth. He had plenty of help. But the agenda has always been to prop up the bronze bandit as the lone ranger.[/QUOTE]
:facepalm
Re: Lebron "had no help" in Cleveland
[QUOTE=Fudge]Look, chief, we're not here to argue seblantics with you.
LeBron's had stacked teams for his entire career. Period. End of story.[/QUOTE]
Zip it, Hello Kitty
Re: Lebron "had no help" in Cleveland
[QUOTE=Fudge]Look, chief, we're not here to argue seblantics with you.
LeBron's had stacked teams for his entire career.
Period. End of story.[/QUOTE]
:rockon:
Re: Lebron "had no help" in Cleveland
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]How many times in NBA history has someone won a title with a second option equivalent to Mo Williams? 3, maybe 4 times at most[/QUOTE]
Yeah and lebron didnt even win a title:roll:
Re: Lebron "had no help" in Cleveland
[QUOTE=NZStreetBaller]Yeah and lebron didnt even win a title:roll:[/QUOTE]
So Lebron ISN'T the greatest player in NBA history? Excellent.
Re: Lebron "had no help" in Cleveland
2006 Wizards (42-40)
2007 Wizards (42-40)
2007 Nets (41-41)
2007 Pistons (53-29)
2008 Wizards (43-39)
2009 Pistons (39-43)
2009 Hawks (47-35)
2010 Bulls (41-41)
There wasn't an all star in the history of the league incapable of duplicating Lebron's "success" with the Cavs. Those teams dont even make the playoffs in the West.
Any superstar in league history when paired with a top defensive, top rebounding and top three point shooting supporting cast is capable of duplicating what Lebron accomplished given the competition with the Cavs. People with agendas love to make his teammates look worse than they are just to prop up LeBron. The team complimented his talents or any superstar perimeter/wing player for that matter.
Re: Lebron "had no help" in Cleveland
[QUOTE=Ne 1]2006 Wizards (42-40)
2007 Wizards (42-40)
2007 Nets (41-41)
2007 Pistons (53-29)
2008 Wizards (43-39)
2009 Pistons (39-43)
2009 Hawks (47-35)
2010 Bulls (41-41)
There wasn't an all star in the history of the league incapable of duplicating Lebron's "success" with the Cavs. Those teams dont even make the playoffs in the West.
Any superstar in league history when paired with a top defensive, top rebounding and top three point shooting supporting cast is capable of duplicating what Lebron accomplished given the competition with the Cavs. People with agendas love to make his teammates look worse than they are just to prop up LeBron. The team complimented his talents or any superstar perimeter/wing player for that matter.[/QUOTE]
His first stint in Cleveland wasn't so much about his "success" but as his brilliance as an individual player.
They weren't a championship caliber squad, regardless of their RS W/L.