Team possessions per game (pace) divided by team apg = possesions per assist

[QUOTE=Bankaii]Are you really arguing that Wade is as good of a playmaker as Pippen?[/QUOTE]
He probably is.

Playmaking includes creating shots for yourself and teammates.

[QUOTE=GrapeApe]Absolutely.[/QUOTE]
On what basis?

[QUOTE=Bankaii]My goodness. For your sake let's say Wade is as good of a playmaker as Pippen (he isn't), that means both Lebron and Jordan had another playmaker on their team. Lebron only had Wade 4 years btw.

Care to explain why even tho Jordan had a higher usage rate his assist percentage for his team was lower than Lebron's if Lebron is so ball dominant?[/QUOTE]

what a meltdown

[url]http://bkref.com/tiny/cIGyr[/url]

Across the board Dwyane Wade's APG numbers are higher.

Scoring isn't even a question.

Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen played in a triangle, a system'd offense that utilizes multiple players during possessions.

Lebron James and Dwyane Wade played in a drive and kick offense, which is iso oriented.

[QUOTE=Fallen Angel][url]http://bkref.com/tiny/cIGyr[/url]

Across the board Dwyane Wade's APG numbers are higher.

Scoring isn't even a question.[/QUOTE]
Wade has also been the primary guy for his entire career until Bron came. He's only average 1 more asp than a sidekick. Equal assists in the playoffs. That's not that great considering the circumstances. But Wade wasn't the point of my post.

[QUOTE=warriorfan]what a meltdown[/QUOTE]
There you go, shit posting is what you're good at:applause:

[QUOTE=Bankaii]

[B]all you did was prove the Bulls as a TEAM were better passers than Lebron's TEAMS. [/B]

[/quote]
[I]Every single one[/I] of Lebron's teams is a far worse passing team??... Whether it's Cleveland, Miami, or back to Cleveland?

Obviously, Lebron is the common denominator.. It's not rocket science.. :rolleyes:


[QUOTE=Bankaii]

MJ had Pippen whom was a point forward to handle most of the PG and playmaking duties.

[/QUOTE]
[B]Playoff assist % during first 3-peat (1991-1993):
[/B]
Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]


[B]Assist Percentage during 2nd three-peat (1996-1998):
[/B]
Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]


[SIZE="2"][COLOR="Red"][I] As you can see, MJ assisted on a FAR higher percentage of teammates FG's, while scoring literally 50-100% more... This is a statistical fact[/I][/COLOR][/SIZE]


[QUOTE=Bankaii]

Lebron has never had a teammate anywhere near his level as a passer or playmaker.

[/QUOTE]
Wade was an elite primary ballhandler - he compares to Pippen's playmaking for sure.

And Lebron had Kyrie too - he had Kyrie all regular season (with Love too), and won a mighty 53 games, but still had a very high possessions-per-assist figure (4.18 possessions per assist - higher than all of MJ's teams).


[QUOTE=Bankaii]

And before you pull the whole "Lebron is too ball dominant for anyone else to be a playmaker" bullshit out [B]MJ has a higher usage percentage for his team[/B] than Lebron in both the regular season and playoffs.

[/QUOTE]
Usage has nothing to do with ball-domination... Usage = shot attempts + turnovers.. That's it.. Ball-domination has nothing to do with it.


[quote=Bankaii]

MJ is better offball, but Lebron is a better playmaker and passer, get over it.

[/QUOTE]
This thread isn't about who is the better passer - this thread shows that everywhere Lebron goes, his teams have low playmaking capacity and low assist numbers.

But the reality is that MJ wasn't just a better off-ball player like you said - he was a better primary ballhandler and passer too.. MJ averaged 30/9/11 in 24 games at point guard at the end of the 1989 season, including 10 triple-doubles in 11 games - this is better than anything Lebron has done in his entire career as a ball-dominator.

Lebron had a stretch in 2010 where he averaged 30/7/11, but it was only for 12 games against lottery teams that averaged 34 wins, and no triple-double stretch.. Whereas MJ's stretch was twice as long while facing teams that averaged 45 wins (playoff teams).. and he had a triple-double stretch.

[QUOTE=Bankaii]On what basis?[/QUOTE]

Statistics and eyes.

Wade has a higher career assist average and had a 6 year stretch ('05-'10) where he averaged 7 apg while also being his team's leading scorer. Wade has had multiple seasons finishing top 10 in the league in scoring and assists, including finishing 7th in assists while winning a scoring title. He won a championship as his team's top scorer, primary ball-handler, and playmaker. He's a far better penetrator and creator than Pippen ever was.

:applause: not surprising. Would be nice to see what this is for the Thunder and Clippers.

props to 3ball for that insightful post.

no, seriously

this is to ether 3ball''s ast% logic (not necessarily the topic here, but it still works)

first threepeat

Jordan - 738 FGM (383 AST)
Pippen - 446 FGM (353 AST)
Others - 1111 FGM (591 AST)

[url]http://bkref.com/tiny/Qme7S[/url]

second threepeat

Jordan - 657 FGM (239 AST)
Pippen - 363 FGM (289 AST)
Others - 991 FGM (704 AST)

[url]http://bkref.com/tiny/Vkkm0[/url]

---

1997+1998 Playoffs Combined

Jordan assisted by:

Pippen - 66 FGM (14% of FGM)
Others - 154 FGM
Unassisted - 250 FGM

[url]http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs[/url]
[url]http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs[/url]

pippenn assisted by:

Jordan - 40 FGM (16% of FGM)
Others - 102 FGM
Unassisted - 109 FGM

[url]http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/shooting/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs[/url]
[url]http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs[/url]

---

carrying these percentages over to the first and second three-peats:

1991-93
Jordan assisted Pippen 446*16%~71 times (312 other assists)
Pippen assisted Jordan 738*14%~103 times (250 other assists)

1996-98
Jordan assisted Pippen 363*16%~58 times (181 other assists)
Pippen assisted Jordan 657*14%~92 times (197 other assists)

---

conclusions:

1) ast% is unreliable here, because MJ took many more shots than scottie. ast% formula is 100 * AST / (((MP / (Tm MP / 5)) * Tm FG) - FG). mj taking more shots makes the

[QUOTE=3ball].
[B]Possessions per assist (higher number means less passing):[/B]


[I]2015 Cavs[/I]: 92.3/22.1 = [COLOR="red"]4.18[/COLOR]
[I]2014 Heat[/I]: 91.2/22.5 = [COLOR="Red"]4.05[/COLOR]
[I]2013 Heat[/I]: 90.7/23.0 = [COLOR="Red"]3.94[/COLOR]
[I]2012 Heat[/I]: 91.2/20.0 = [COLOR="Red"]4.56[/COLOR]
[I]2011 Heat[/I]: 90.9/20.0 = [COLOR="red"]4.55[/COLOR]
[I]2010 Cavs[/I]: 91.4/22.4 = [COLOR="Red"]4.08[/COLOR]
[I]2009 Cavs[/I]: 88.7/20.3 = [COLOR="Red"]4.37[/COLOR]
[I]2008 Cavs[/I]: 90.2/20.0 = [COLOR="Red"]4.51[/COLOR]
[I]2007 Cavs[/I]: 90.8/20.8 = [COLOR="Red"]4.37[/COLOR]
[I]2006 Cavs[/I]: 89.8/19.0 = [COLOR="Red"]4.72[/COLOR]


[I]1998 Bulls[/I]: 89.0/23.8 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.74[/COLOR]
[I]1997 Bulls[/I]: 90.0/26.1 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.45[/COLOR]
[I]1996 Bulls[/I]: 91.1/24.8 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.67[/COLOR]
[I]1993 Bulls[/I]: 92.5/26.0 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.56[/COLOR]
[I]1992 Bulls[/I]: 94.4/27.8 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.40[/COLOR]
[I]1991 Bulls[/I]: 95.6/27.0 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.54[/COLOR]
[I]1990 Bulls[/I]: 96.7/26.5 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.65[/COLOR]
[I]1989 Bulls[/I]: 97.0/27.0 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.59[/COLOR]
[I]1988 Bulls[/I]: 95.5/26.2 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.65[/COLOR]
[I]1987 Bulls[/I]: 95.8/26.1 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.67[/COLOR]
[I]1985 Bulls[/I]: 99.4/24.3 = [COLOR="Blue"]4.09[/COLOR]


[I]2015 GSW[/I]:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 98.3/27.4 = [COLOR="Magenta"]3.59[/COLOR]
[I]2014 Spurs[/I]:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 95.0/25.2 = [COLOR="Magenta"]3.77[/COLOR]
[I]2011 Mavs[/I]:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 91.3/23.8 = [COLOR="Magenta"]3.84[/COLOR]
[I]2007 Spurs[/I]:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 89.8/22.1 = [COLOR="Magenta"]4.06[/COLOR]

[I]1987 Lakers[/I]: 101.6/29.6 = [COLOR="darkgreen"]3.43[/COLOR]
[I]1986 Celtics[/I]: 102.1/29.1 = [COLOR="darkgreen"]3.47[/COLOR]

[I]Source: basketball-reference.com[/I]


Lebron's teams have always had below-average assist levels.. His ball-dominant, point guard style turns a normally high-assisted frontcourt position into a low-assisted one, thus reducing the playmaking capacity of the team - teammates can't throw the their leading scorer an assist as often as other teams.. The lower playmaking capacity of Lebron's teams limits their strategic options on offense - the team is locked into playing Lebron-ball.

Otoh, when you have a guy like MJ leading the league in scoring by getting his points like the GIF below (off-ball) - this is highly optimal.. Playing off-ball and having a high assisted rate MAXIMIZES the play-making capacity of the team and maximizes teammates' opportunity to get an assist - MJ's off-ball game and his goat scoring was a reservoir of playmaking and assist opportunities for teammates.. No wonder his role players never underperformed - his relentless off-ball game made it easier for teammates to playmake.

[/QUOTE]
2014-15 GSW = [COLOR="Red"]4.69[/COLOR]
2014-15 SAS =[COLOR="Red"] 4.52[/COLOR]

Damn these are terrible passing team huh what with Duncan hogging the ball making non-optimal plays.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[QUOTE=warriorfan]Having a meltdown while we are having a mature basketball discussion isn't going to get you anywhere.[/QUOTE]


:applause:

Slayed.

Niggah gonna bring up sucking dick while a calm, intelligent basketball discussion is going on



:biggums:

OP is stupid and doesn't even know why. One of the least convincing arguments in favor of Jordan I've seen. And I even agree Jordan > Lebron.

[QUOTE=3ball][I]Every single one[/I] of Lebron's teams is a far worse passing team??... Whether it's Cleveland, Miami, or back to Cleveland?

Obviously, Lebron is the common denominator.. It's not rocket science.. :rolleyes:



[B]Playoff assist % during first 3-peat (1991-1993):
[/B]
Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]


[B]Assist Percentage during 2nd three-peat (1996-1998):
[/B]
Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]


[SIZE="2"][COLOR="Red"][I] As you can see, MJ assisted on a FAR higher percentage of teammates FG's, while scoring literally 50-100% more... This is a statistical fact[/I][/COLOR][/SIZE]



Wade was an elite primary ballhandler - he compares to Pippen's playmaking for sure.

And Lebron had Kyrie too - he had Kyrie all regular season (with Love too), and won a mighty 53 games, but still had a very high possessions-per-assist figure (4.18 possessions per assist - higher than all of MJ's teams).



Usage has nothing to do with ball-domination... Usage = shot attempts + turnovers.. That's it.. Ball-domination has nothing to do with it.



This thread isn't about who is the better passer - this thread shows that everywhere Lebron goes, his teams have low playmaking capacity and low assist numbers.

But the reality is that MJ wasn't just a better off-ball player like you said - he was a better primary ballhandler and passer too.. MJ averaged 30/9/11 in 24 games at point guard at the end of the 1989 season, including 10 triple-doubles in 11 games - this is better than anything Lebron has done in his entire career as a ball-dominator.

Lebron had a stretch in 2010 where he averaged 30/7/11, but it was only for 12 games against lottery teams that averaged 34 wins, and no triple-double stretch.. Whereas MJ's stretch was twice as long while facing teams that averaged 45 wins (playoff teams).. and he had a triple-double stretch.[/QUOTE]
Going by your dumb logic, in 1995 when Jordan missed most the season the Bulls had 3.29 points per possession, which is their lowest of the Jordan era. Why was it so low the season he missed if he wasn't ball dominant?

And do you mind posting each teams stats before and after Lebron left? Since he's so ball dominant there should be a huge spike in the numbers.
Like how the 2010 Heat had 4.74(higher than any Bron team) before Lebron joined and 4.60(higher than any point Lebron was on the team) the year after he left.

He's so ball dominant their stats get worse without him:bowdown:
Inb4 professional athletes forgot how to play basketball without Bron ball.