Goat debate

It was a good job, good debate.

[QUOTE=Manny98]3 rings ,3 FMVPs, 4 MVPs ,most NBA 1st teams,GOAT stats in regular season and postseason, KYS[/QUOTE]

You are one oblivious tool.

[QUOTE='Toine=MVP]I think you have a point, that mostly people are almost randomly ranking guys they've heard should be at the top and have no real standards.

But I think you are also a little confused about the arguments, especially regarding Jordan and also the post peak Kareem vs peak Shaq analogy.[/QUOTE]
Don't mistake me not going in depth as being confused, Mj gets criteria spun and flipped to stay in his favor constantly:oldlol: I used to do the same thing myself when i was younger and had idols. About Shaq and Kareem of course it's not an exact 1:1 comparison but we know Kareem was still Kareem for at least half the Laker titles, While having Magic by his side. But you are totally correct about people not really having standards and winging it.


[QUOTE=Phoenix]The GOAT argument will never been without agendas or personal preferences. I don't have a GOAT, I tend to go by tiers.[/QUOTE]
agreed, i myself prefer the tier concept these days too.

[QUOTE=Marchesk]If we were all to be totally objective, we'd put the legitimate GOAT candidates on tier 1 and then give our individual reasons why one of them should be called GOAT.


Russell
Wilt
Lebron
Jordan
Kareem
Magic

I say Jordan because I think he had to best combination of winning, stats and accolades taking into account teammates and era. But that's my opinion. You can make a case for all six of those guys.[/QUOTE]
I pretty much got it the same way besides Magic not being in my top tier and not really being sure how to rate Wilt and Russell but knowing enough that i can't eliminate them from consideration. The older guys are really tough to deal with not knowing them as well as the guys we grew up with. I swear a baby seal gets clubbed everytime i see a poster tell someone they're unqualified to speak on Mj because they didn't grow up watching him while simultaneously disregarding Wilt, Bill, and sometimes even Cap.

One idea i hold about the goat is generally most of the top 10 have a case the lower half have much weaker cases but depending on what you value most you can make a case for them all.

You have to use all three factors. Eye test, rings and stats, in that order. If you take almost any game anywhere and there wasnt a stat sheet, score or trophies you would still know who the best player on the floor was. There's a reason why scouts still go to multiple games of prospects when evaluating them.

Being a winner is important because it shows you know how to lead and work well with others to achieve a goal. The best leaders have a very high iq when it comes to seeing the game. They also know how to get the most out of there players. If you look at most of the goat players they were all winners before the NBA. Magic, bird, mj, LeBron, kareem, Russell and Kobe we're all winners before the NBA.

Stats are more to just reaffirm what you already know about a player from watching them. They're the least effective of the three in evaluating a player. there are guys like Draymond with average stats who are better than alot of guys with better stats. Then there are guys like cousins who has really good stats but are worse than alot of guys with lesser stats.

At the end of they day though I think mj put it best when he said there is no goat. Until someone builds a time machine and we can put mj against LeBron or Russell against kareem, we'll really never know

Well the eye test quite easily shows LeBron is the worst defender of a supposed GOAT candidate, and seeing as how defense is half of basketball that should automatically disqualify him. And one year of chase down blocks does not put you anywhere near the level of defense that a GOAT candidate such a Jordan put forth for a career.

[QUOTE=Leviathon1121]Well the eye test quite easily shows LeBron is the worst defender of a supposed GOAT candidate, and seeing as how defense is half of basketball that should automatically disqualify him. And one year of chase down blocks does not put you anywhere near the level of defense that a GOAT candidate such a Jordan put forth for a career.[/QUOTE]
actually Lebron was a great peak defender just didn't do it over a long period of time. Remember he has 2 2nd place finishes for dpoy.

[QUOTE=Marchesk]Yes you can. But if you want to say Bird is on the same level as Magic, then fine. But if you bring Bird in, then you also have Duncan, Shaq and Kobe.

So okay, drop Magic from the list.

Bill Russell = most winning
Wilt = best stats, most dominant
Kareem = best longevity, 6 MVPs
Jordan = best scoring, never lost a finals
Lebron = best carrying a team

All of those guys have multiple titles, rings, MVPs, dominating stats (Russell would be rebounding and shot blocking if it was tracked), and have been called the GOAT by plenty of people throughout time.

Magic and Bird were hurt by having their careers shortened.[/QUOTE]
:cheers:

[QUOTE=Marchesk]Yes you can. But if you want to say Bird is on the same level as Magic, then fine. But if you bring Bird in, then you also have Duncan, Shaq and Kobe.

So okay, drop Magic from the list.

Bill Russell = most winning
Wilt = best stats, most dominant
Kareem = best longevity, 6 MVPs
Jordan = best scoring, never lost a finals
Lebron = best carrying a team

All of those guys have multiple titles, rings, MVPs, dominating stats (Russell would be rebounding and shot blocking if it was tracked), and have been called the GOAT by plenty of people throughout time.

Magic and Bird were hurt by having their careers shortened.[/QUOTE]

There is some validity to each of these being category leaders let's say. But the problem is that if someone was #2 in all those categories (there isn't such a person), that person would definitely be the GOAT and not in this tier 1.

To me it is pretty clear Bird is the #2 GOAT to Jordan mainly because he was the 2nd greatest but mostly in ways somewhat similar to Jordan. He's just behind him in too many things to be considered better than Jordan.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]actually Lebron was a great peak defender just didn't do it over a long period of time. Remember he has 2 2nd place finishes for dpoy.[/QUOTE]
In another couple years there will be so many gifs of his lazy, pathetic defense that nobody going to remember he had a season, or two, of chase down blocks.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]Don't mistake me not going in depth as being confused, Mj gets criteria spun and flipped to stay in his favor constantly:oldlol: I used to do the same thing myself when i was younger and had idols. About Shaq and Kareem of course it's not an exact 1:1 comparison but we know Kareem was still Kareem for at least half the Laker titles, While having Magic by his side. But you are totally correct about people not really having standards and winging it.
[/Quote]

You are confused if you think people are twisting their way into ranking Jordan #1.

The people that twist his legacy is by trying to say he didn't win as much as Russell or have the career numbers of Kareem or peak stats of Wilt, etc.

But that is just a strawman because no one claims Jordan is the greatest because he put up the best stats or had the most wins or played the longest.

Those are all nice categories to be ranked highly in, but none really get to the main greatness categories.

[QUOTE=Bronbron23]You have to use all three factors. Eye test, rings and stats, in that order. If you take almost any game anywhere and there wasnt a stat sheet, score or trophies you would still know who the best player on the floor was. There's a reason why scouts still go to multiple games of prospects when evaluating them.
[/QUOTE]

This is a bad way of breaking it down.

Greatness has to be broken down into two parts and both are subjective:

Part 1: How would a player do if he played in different eras (mainly variations of modern eras) with the training and coaching strategies of those eras?

The things we look at very closely to get an answer to part 1 are things like the eye test, rings (but also the flip side like counting major failures), and stats (also projected stats), probably in that order as you said. But those are just sub categories. We can be pretty confident that Bird in today's era would have been at least in the running for the 2nd best 3 point shooter to Steph, but he didn't shoot a ton of 3s in his era because of the strategies of the day.

Part 2 (more important than Part 1): What was the net positive impact this player had on the sport and legacy of professional basketball (counting ABA and NBA)?

Here we get a very different leader group. Guys like LeBron especially but also Kareem to some degree fall really really short in this important category. The top GOATs in this are Russell and Wilt, Bird and Magic, Jordan, and to some level Shaq. LeBron has a net negative rating as he was never a big star that made people excited about the NBA and also has a negative legacy in many ways (ushered in the FA superteam era).

[QUOTE=nayte]It's not funny anymore. I try to debate who is goat but I get LeBron over Jordan cause stats. [B]But I bring up harden and westbrook and somehow stats don't count[/B]. All fans need to get their sheet strait. It is silly.[/QUOTE]

What do you mean somehow? They have nowhere near the goods (accolades) to be in that discussion.... come on man, i know you aint stupid...

As far as the GOAT debate, you all know i like Lebron... but please, stop... MJ will never be surpassed, seemingly... through various criteria etc. Lebron is a bit more reasonable debate for being under MJ at the very best, if you are extremly kind to Russell/Wilt then he is #4, he shouldnt be anywhere lower than #5 tho... those other guys just dont have the accolades enough (Shaq, Bird, Kobe, Shaq is the closest)... Magic Johnson is the absolute closest accolades wise, but Lebron has the longevity thing (he was just more prominent for longer)...

[QUOTE='Toine=MVP]You are confused if you think people are twisting their way into ranking Jordan #1.

The people that twist his legacy is by trying to say he didn't win as much as Russell or have the career numbers of Kareem or peak stats of Wilt, etc.

But that is just a strawman because no one claims Jordan is the greatest because he put up the best stats or had the most wins or played the longest.

Those are all nice categories to be ranked highly in, but none really get to the main greatness categories.[/QUOTE]
nah, we're having a disconnect because I'm not saying any of the things you think I'm saying. I don't have clearcut Goat anymore but gun to my head I'm still saying Mj. It's just my thinking on the subject has evolved over time to the point i accept a couple other guys cases for goat. Mj is worthy of the title so no twisting needs to ever be done to validate it, the gymnastics come from the desperate need by fans to put him so far away from the others that there's no debate. The most wrongly spread thought about goat is there's a correct answer to the question. Yes there are laughable answers but how can you in good faith say Mj is goat beyond a shadow of doubt when you never saw Wilt in his prime aside from youtube highlights? Same for Russell and Kareem. When more than half of the top 5 played before most of us were even born how can there ever be a consensus?

[QUOTE=Leviathon1121]Well the eye test quite easily shows LeBron is the worst defender of a supposed GOAT candidate, and seeing as how defense is half of basketball that should automatically disqualify him. And one year of chase down blocks does not put you anywhere near the level of defense that a GOAT candidate such a Jordan put forth for a career.[/QUOTE]
I don't think LeBron is better than mj or even any of the goat candidates I mentioned I just put him up there because alot of people do and I think it's fairly close. Yes his defence is trash. No worse than magic though.

[QUOTE=nayte]It's not funny anymore. I try to debate who is goat but I get LeBron over Jordan cause stats. But I bring up harden and westbrook and somehow stats don't count. All fans need to get their sheet strait. It is silly.[/QUOTE]

Lebron's RS stats and playoff stats aren't really better than Jordan's and they are almost certainly bound to get lower the longer he plays. He's nowhere close to Jordan in terms of accomplishments, playoff performances, etc. He's not nearly the defender Jordan was, particularly when comparing them in their 30's. What's his case for GOAT again, as opposed to top 5-10? :confusedshrug: