top 5 two way players in nba history ( aka the real top 5 players in nba history )

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]
Pippen was to me as good on offense as Lebron on D...meaning...really good...but not all time elite. [/QUOTE]


lebron was never a good on ball defender. he was being made fun of throughout his career for his defense. it was always a joke to everyone who actually paid attention and didn't just watch his chase down blocks

2011 - [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhR-CXagPZI[/url]

2014 - [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKUCE_5H7Iw[/url]

2015 - [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK9wLWF8TXo[/url]

2016 - [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05hXYtvQEjM[/url]

2017 - [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmvikY8VdQ[/url]

2018 - [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKjNWFqrAIg[/url]

LeBron was MVP and 2nd in DPOY voting in 2012 and 2013

Nobody was as good on offense and defense as LeBron in those years



And Kobe was a negative defender every year since 2000

[QUOTE=72-10]as for Magic, can't ignore his ridiculous steals rate in the first half of his career like it's nothing. He also blocked shots then, though his height probably helped here.

btw Bird was a good help defender[/QUOTE]
LOL @ trying to prop up Magic's career pathetic defensive efforts. There's a reason why he was assigned to guard the least offensive threat on the floor every night.

Steals isn't an indicator that one plays very good defense. Cause if it was, we'd be talking about how great a defender AI was.

[QUOTE=Gus Hemmingway]LeBron was MVP and 2nd in DPOY voting in 2012 and 2013

Nobody was as good on offense and defense as LeBron in those years



And Kobe was a negative defender every year since 2000[/QUOTE]



lebron was never good at defense.


he was overrated due to his chase down blocks/playing the passing lanes. the video evidence proves this. its why people caught on and he stopped making all defensive teams at such a young age

[QUOTE=kennethgriffen]90% of steals and blocks by non post players are actually attained by NOT playing defense and instead leaking out for chase downs/playing passing lanes etc...

its why most people were tricked into thinking a younger lebron was a DPOTY candidate. later when they actually watched his finals defense exposed highlight compilations they realized the truth[/QUOTE]
Speaking of being exposed in the Finals, isn't Kobe a career 40% shooter against a conference that you say has been horrific since 2000??

[QUOTE=Hey Yo]Speaking of being exposed in the Finals, isn't Kobe a career 40% shooter against a conference that you say has been horrific since 2000??[/QUOTE]


a conference can suck and still produce the pistons/celtics ( who were historically great at defense )


but kobes percentages in the finals are due mostly to injuries


- having a major ankle injury in 2000
- having a major shoulder/knee injury in 2004
- having major hand/knee injuries from 2008-2010


kobe was only healthy for 2 finals out of 7 ... this is a testament to kobes ability to grind it out, defend, rebound, get to the line and lead his team to the win at all cost ( i.e. figure it out as he put it )


lebron just quits/whines/moans/b*tches/blames everyone else but himself when he's faced with any adversity

[QUOTE]lebron was never a good on ball defender. he was being made fun of throughout his career for his defense. it was always a joke to everyone who actually paid attention and didn't just watch his chase down blocks[/QUOTE]

The exact same people who voted Kobe in voted Lebron in. Did they only know what they were seeing with one of them?

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]The exact same people who voted Kobe in voted Lebron in. Did they only know what they were seeing with one of them?[/QUOTE]


kobe didn't play the passing lanes/leak out for chase downs


his reputation was for lock down on ball defense. there was never a misconception about his defense because it was authentic


i do however admit he probably was gifted his last 2 nominations. but then again he was robbed in 2001 and 2002 for first team .. so it balances out

Chris Paul deserves a mention.

9x all-defense (7x 1st)
6x steals leader

Always a pest on that side of the court and is one of the greatest passers in league history.

LeBron had some truly impressive moments of defense (such as defending prime Rose in the playoffs) but he's been incredibly inconsistent during his career. He was probably at his best in 2011-2013, but before that he wasn't committed on a regular basis. And starting in 2014, it really fell off a cliff, starting with both his effort and leadership on the defensive end of the floor (which affects everyone else's willingness to play good d). It got worse and worse in his second stint with Cleveland, and it's even worse this year with the Lakers. He's truly a one-way player now.

Wilt should be somewhere on this list, if you take out the whole criteria of requiring a great number of championships. I'm a bit skeptical of Wilt's overall greatness for a variety of reasons, but one can't deny the sheer number of blocks and rebounds he collected. He did what he was supposed to do on the defensive end in the era in which he played ... with a vengeance.

Kidd/GP over Kobe? Thats not something to be upset about. He was same basic level on that end with slightly declined GP and peak Kidd. Kobe in 02 led the second team in votes. Barely behind kidd. In 03 he beat Kidd out for first team by only 4 points. They stayed close.

The award voting has always been odd. One year the most all D votes went to Tony Allen(53) with Lebron second(52) but Marc Gasol with 12 won DPOY because its a different group of voters. Media does DPOY and went with Gasol. Coaches do all D team and had 8 people with more votes.

[QUOTE=kennethgriffen][B]a conference can suck and still produce the pistons/celtics ( who were historically great at defense ) [/B]


but kobes percentages in the finals are due mostly to injuries


- having a major ankle injury in 2000
- having a major shoulder/knee injury in 2004
- having major hand/knee injuries from 2008-2010


kobe was only healthy for 2 finals out of 7 ... this is a testament to kobes ability to grind it out, defend, rebound, get to the line and lead his team to the win at all cost ( i.e. figure it out as he put it )


lebron just quits/whines/moans/b*tches/blames everyone else but himself when he's faced with any adversity[/QUOTE]
ahhhhhhhh..... so it's only the teams Kobe faced that didn't suck and had historically great defense in the worst conference ever..... :rolleyes:

If Detroits defense was so historical, then that Finals wouldn't be considered the biggest upset in Finals history now would it??

Kobe's horrific shot selection and selfish choices is what made Detroits defense look historic that series.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Kidd/GP over Kobe? Thats not something to be upset about. He was same basic level on that end with slightly declined GP and peak Kidd. Kobe in 02 led the second team in votes. Barely behind kidd. In 03 he beat Kidd out for first team by only 4 points. They stayed close.

The award voting has always been odd. One year the most all D votes went to Tony Allen(53) with Lebron second(52) but Marc Gasol with 12 won DPOY because its a different group of voters. Media does DPOY and went with Gasol. Coaches do all D team and had 8 people with more votes.[/QUOTE]


kobe was guarding the other teams PG's and shutting them down routinely back in 2001 and 2002. it was a major reason why the lakers were so successful


gary paytons sonics missed the playoffs in 2001. how on earth is that worthy of making 1st team defense

[QUOTE=Hey Yo]ahhhhhhhh..... so it's only the teams Kobe faced that didn't suck and had historically great defense in the worst conference ever..... :rolleyes:

If Detroits defense was so historical, then that Finals wouldn't be considered the biggest upset in Finals history now would it??[/QUOTE]



a conference is 15 teams.. not one team... you nitwit

Winning 44 games with young rashard and the remains of alcoholic era Vin Baker is supposed to eliminate someone from being all D because 44 wins put you in 10th place?

Swap Lewis for Shaq I