"Pippen was the best player in the world in 93, 94, 95" - Dennis Rodman

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;13973815]Exactly.

For me Pippen peaked at 3rd in 94' behind Hakeem and Robinson. In 95' he fell to 4th as Shaq surpassed him. 96' 5th as MJ was back. 97' 5th again. 98', 92' he wasn't top 5 but was close. 91' top 10.



[/QUOTE]

It's been interesting watching Pippen's legacy grow as the years go by. Back in the 90's when the 50 greatest players came out, the two players that people argued shouldn't be on the list was Shaq and Scottie, Shaq because he was only in his 4th year but Scottie because people didn't think highly of him. I lived in Chicago and we used to argue this on the local sports talk radio stations. We watched his migraine shenanians against Detroit and his refusing to enter a playoff game against the hated Knicks in '94. The fact is, he was the man in '94 and his leadership skills were questionable. He quit on not just the Bulls, but the city. None of us thought he was better than Grant Hill, and none of us thought he was better than Penny, at the time. Looking back at the entirety of his career it's turned out better than both Hill and Penny, but you have to understand how people viewed Pippen at that time. It wasn't great. He was a fantastic player, he deserves alot of credit, but you guys elevate him too much.

[QUOTE=red1;13973835]pippen fam eating steak and caviar in 2020 :cheers:[/QUOTE]

:cheers:

[QUOTE]This was Phil Jackson reflecting on how MJ's perception of Pippen changed after the Dream Team's performance in 1992.[/QUOTE]

Not only that, in 1995 he said Pippen was the best player in the NBA. When he said it I thought he was just praising a teammate but years later David Halberstam talked to MJ in an interview for the book and MJ said he meant what he said then.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;13973867]:cheers:



Not only that, in 1995 he said Pippen was the best player in the NBA. When he said it I thought he was just praising a teammate but years later David Halberstam talked to MJ in an interview for the book and MJ said he meant what he said then.[/QUOTE]

OMG he did? So he's not the goat after all??

[QUOTE=RogueBorg;13973864]It's been interesting watching Pippen's legacy grow as the years go by. Back in the 90's when the 50 greatest players came out, the two players that people argued shouldn't be on the list was Shaq and Scottie, Shaq because he was only in his 4th year but Scottie because people didn't think highly of him. I lived in Chicago and we used to argue this on the local sports talk radio stations. We watched his migraine shenanians against Detroit and his refusing to enter a playoff game against the hated Knicks in '94. The fact is, he was the man in '94 and his leadership skills were questionable. He quit on not just the Bulls, but the city. None of us thought he was better than Grant Hill, and none of us thought he was better than Penny, at the time. Looking back at the entirety of his career it's turned out better than both Hill and Penny, but you have to understand how people viewed Pippen at that time. It wasn't great. He was a fantastic player, he deserves alot of credit, but you guys elevate him too much.[/QUOTE]

Solid stuff here

[QUOTE=RogueBorg;13973864]you have to understand how people viewed Pippen at that time. It wasn't great. He was a fantastic player, he deserves alot of credit, but you guys elevate him too much.[/QUOTE]

It depends. I was a Pippen fan who grew up in the Philadelphia area so I saw him through a national lens. 1.8 second gate didn't help his image but he wasn't nationally harped on as I assume he was locally. He was a superstar, not the best player but definitely in the top 5 at his best. Hill got a lot of hype (he was supposed to be the next MJ) but remember Pippen was ahead of him in all-NBA in 95' and 96'. By 97' Hill was better but Pippen was 31 by then so not shocking.

The top 50 thing comes up but look at those lists now. Pippen consistently is in the top 20-30 range ahead of many of his peers. For instance, Slam Magazine's list in 2018 had Pippen 22nd. Wilkins was 41st, Payton 39th, Ewing 30th, Robinson 29th, Stockton 25th. Malone (21), Barkley (20) and obviously Hakeem and MJ were ahead of him.

I am not sure why Pippen is the one people keep pointing to about the top 50 when anyone who does those lists has him easily in it. I suspect a lot of these people are not putting pen to paper. Can anyone here name 50 players greater than him?

The leadership stuff is an odd critique, albeit a common one. His coaches and teammates all rave about his leadership. Who are we to say he sucked as a leader? We weren't in the locker room or in the huddle.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;13973815]Exactly.

SamuariSwish, Jordan himself said Pippen was the best player in the NBA in 1995.

For me Pippen peaked at 3rd in 94' behind Hakeem and Robinson. In 95' he fell to 4th as Shaq surpassed him. 96' 5th as MJ was back. 97' 5th again. 98', 92' he wasn't top 5 but was close. 91' top 10.

Yet we have people like 3ball saying he was Mo Williams or others saying Kyrie Irving was much better. He was a legitimate superstar, a MVP caliber player. He was similar to Ewing or Drexler at their peaks--players MJ stans love to tell us were great.

People don't realize how hard it is to be the best player. Guys like Barkley, K. Malone,[B] KG, Dirk[/B], West, Oscar, Isiah, [B]Dr. J, D. Robinson [/B][B]all never got to #1[/B]. Many legends don't even get into the top 5. Reggie Miller or Dominique were never close to the top 5.[/QUOTE]
You sure about that? Very arguable for all of these guys. I would imagine West may have been arguable as well, but I am less familiar with who was the best players during his career.

[QUOTE=LAL;13973871]OMG he did? So he's not the goat after all??[/QUOTE]

Yeah and in 95' he would be asked if he felt he was the best player in the NBA again and he would say he wasn't even the best player on his team.

I forgot to mention in 96' MJ was going around saying Pippen should be MVP.

I always take the public stuff with a grain of salt--it is smart to praise a teammate--but when it is confirmed privately (like the Dream Team quote posted earlier in this thread) or years later then you have to give it weight.

[QUOTE=RRR3;13973881]You sure about that? Very arguable for all of these guys. I would imagine West may have been arguable as well, but I am less familiar with who was the best players during his career.[/QUOTE]

West and Oscar never did because Wilt, Russell, or Kareem was always around. There was a "Hakeem versus Robinson" debate in 94' and 95' (most people said Hakeem but Robinson had a sizable contingent) but in retrospect no one is going to say Robinson was better than peak Hakeem.

Dirk, KG are in a similar boat as West and Oscar. Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, or LeBron were always around.

Dr. J had Kareem, Bird, Moses there blocking him.

You can apply the same to Harden or Curry. They have been a top 3-5 guys for years but one or more of LeBron, Durant, Giannis were always better.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;13973890]West and Oscar never did because Wilt, Russell, or Kareem was always around. There was a "Hakeem versus Robinson" debate in 94' and 95' (most people said Hakeem but Robinson had a sizable contingent) but in retrospect no one is going to say Robinson was better than peak Hakeem.

Dirk, KG are in a similar boat as West and Oscar. Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, or LeBron were always around.

Dr. J had Kareem, Bird, Moses there blocking him.

You can apply the same to Harden or Curry. They have been a top 3-5 guys for years but one or more of LeBron, Durant, Giannis were always better.[/QUOTE]
Who was better than KG in 2004? Didn't Dr. J have a case in 1981 or 1982? Didn't Dirk have a case in 2006 or 2007? You could easily argue Curry any year from 15-19.

[QUOTE=RRR3;13973896]Who was better than KG in 2004? Didn't Dr. J have a case in 1981 or 1982? Didn't Dirk have a case in 2006 or 2007? You could easily argue Curry any year from 15-19.[/QUOTE]

These guys weren't far behind so I suppose you could argue for any of them (in theory you could do the same for Pippen too, or Harden today). Duncan was the best player in 2004, Kobe in 2006 and 2007. Curry was never better than LeBron or Durant. For Dr. J in 81' Bird was better (although J won MVP) and arguably Kareem. In 82' Bird again and Moses.

MVP is different as we see these guys sometimes win those due to narratives, voter fatigue, etc. Harden won it in 2018. Did anyone think he was the best player, though?

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;13973915]These guys weren't far behind so I suppose you could argue for any of them (in theory you could do the same for Pippen too, or Harden today). Duncan was the best player in 2004, Kobe in 2006 and 2007. Curry was never better than LeBron or Durant. For Dr. J in 81' Bird was better (although J won MVP) and arguably Kareem. In 82' Bird again and Moses.

MVP is different as we see these guys sometimes win those due to narratives, voter fatigue, etc. Harden won it in 2018. Did anyone think he was the best player, though?[/QUOTE]
Imo KG was the best player in '04 & Dirk in 2011. I really don't see Duncan's argument at all over KG for that year

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;13973915]These guys weren't far behind so I suppose you could argue for any of them (in theory you could do the same for Pippen too, or Harden today). Duncan was the best player in 2004, Kobe in 2006 and 2007. Curry was never better than LeBron or Durant. For Dr. J in 81' Bird was better (although J won MVP) and arguably Kareem. In 82' Bird again and Moses.

MVP is different as we see these guys sometimes win those due to narratives, voter fatigue, etc. Harden won it in 2018. Did anyone think he was the best player, though?[/QUOTE]
Curry has been better than Durant for a while and he was absolutely better than LeBron in 2019. I generally see people ranking KG as the best in 2004 man, I don't remember seeing someone say Duncan before tbh.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;13973923]Imo KG was the best player in '04 & Dirk in 2011. I really don't see Duncan's argument at all over KG for that year[/QUOTE]
Dirk was absolutely not the best in 2011. LeBron clearly was, or else he wouldn't have got so much shit for choking. Dirk had the most successful year of course.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;13973815]Exactly.

For me Pippen peaked at 3rd in 94' behind Hakeem and Robinson.[/quote]

Pippen might have peaked in 1994, but he wasn't better than Hakeem/Robinson/Shaq/Malone/Barkley. Especially if we're including postseason play. He was top ~6-8 in 1994. Top 10ish in 1995, as his scoring went down. The other players I mentioned, besides Barkley, were also playing better than the year before.

Pippen was a top 5 player in the 1996 regular-season, but trailed off a bit in the playoffs (39% shooting in the playoffs. ouch!) Overall? I'd say he was top 10 that year. Top 10 in 1997. And probably top 10 in 1998.

Giving him top 5 status for some of those years was a bit generous of you. Other than that, we mostly agree. I mean better THAT than going the 3ball route, thinking Pippen was Derek Fisher :oldlol:

[QUOTE=RRR3;13973925]Dirk was absolutely not the best in 2011. LeBron clearly was, or else he wouldn't have got so much shit for choking. Dirk had the most successful year of course.[/QUOTE]

Who was the best player in 2016?

See, the best player still has to perform best.

LeBron and Dirk got an equal share of playoff time, 4 rounds, and Dirk outperformed him. He was better, literally.