Teammate career rankings between Jordan and Lebron -- The Reality

Wow! Even LeBron's teammates are better than Ordan's.
:bowdown: GOAT

[QUOTE=goozeman;14110880][B]Career Rankings[/B]

[B]PER:[/B]

Anthony Davis....3
Dwayne Wade......21
Kyrie Irving.....33
Kevin Love.......45
Chris Bosh.......62
Scottie Pippen...132
Horace Grant.....185

[B]OBPM:[/B]

Anthony Davis....12
Kyrie Irving.....13
Dwayne Wade......25
Kevin Love.......29
Scottie Pippen...90
Chris Bosh.......102
Horace Grant.....107

[B]
WS/48:[/B]

Anthony Davis....13
Horace Grant.....55
Kevin Love.......57
Kyrie Irving.....68
Dwayne Wade......70
Chris Bosh.......76
Scottie Pippen...129
[B]
Ortg:[/B]

Horace Grant.....4 :biggums:
Anthony Davis....28
Kevin Love.......47
Kyrie Irving.....89
Chris Bosh.......107
Dwayne Wade......231
Scottie Pippen...NR top 250
[B]
Effective Field Goal Percentage:[/B]

Anthony Davis....86
Kyrie Irving.....99
Horace Grant.....206
Kevin Love.......225
Chris Bosh.......227
Scottie Pippen...244
Dwayne Wade......NR top 250
[B]
True Shooting:[/B]

Anthony Davis.....41
Kyrie Irving......84
Chris Bosh........89
Kevin Love........92
Dwayne Wade.......183
Dennis Rodman.....244 :rockon:
Scoottie Pippen...NR top 250 :facepalm
Horace Grant......NR top 250

[B]BPM:[/B]

Anthony Davis.....12
Dwayne Wade.......22
Kyrie Irving......32
Scottie Pippen....35 :applause:
Kevin Love........48
Chris Bosh........134
Horace Grant......176


Notice that all the real stats that are actually measuring something tangible (PER, OBPM, Ortg, WS/48, eFG%, TS%, etc) actually correlate very closely with one another in rankings. They all say that Pippen was maybe a top-100 offensive player all-time. Pippen wasn't even a Chris Bosh level offensive talent. Also, Scottie Pippen's BPM ranking is wildly incongruous because it rewards defensive stars playing on great defensive teams. From BREF about the BPM 2.0 changes:




When basketball reference reworked the stat back in 2016, players like John Stockton (another Pippen-like two-way player) saw their career BPM double. And here is the kicker... Even with that bonus bump gifted to him and playing on the best defensive teams of all-time practically his entire career, Pippen wouldn't even be a top-three impact player compared to Lebron's teammates. All-time Pippen is just slightly better than Kevin Love.

In summation, in order for Lebron to be on the level of Jordan, he would need to win six titles and win six Finals MVP's with a Chris Bosh/Kevin Love level player as his second option.

Lebron fans...

[IMG]https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2Fl4Ki2obCyAQS5WhFe%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1&nofb=1[/IMG][/QUOTE]

What more needs to be said

I might retire because of this post

Look how much more offensive talent lebron played with, yet he never had #1 offenses.. leDumb ball

[QUOTE=FKAri;14110940]Wow! Even LeBron's teammates are better than Ordan's.
:bowdown: GOAT[/QUOTE]

Think about this:

LeBron stans: "LeBron makes his teammates better. Look at how good Davis is now!"
Jordan stans: "Jordan's teammates sucked. They sucked before him, they sucked with him, they sucked after him."

It is an odd argument for Mike: so he can't make anyone around him better like his chief rival LeBron does (as argued by his fans)? Maybe that explains the lack of success when he didn't have a strong team around him.

I remember Kobe stans, when he was the big threat to MJ, didn't go around dissing Gasol and co. en masse. Some did, but not all. I remember arguing for much of the 2010 season with Kobe stans who swore to me that Bynum>Amare. :lol

Can anyone imagine MJ fans arguing for Grant or Kukoc, who are the rough analogues to what Bynum was on the Lakers, as being better than a guy like Kemp (loose comp for Amare, although Kemp's ceiling was not as high as Amare's)?

[QUOTE=Insidious]I couldn't agree more. What is the obsession with w/s per 48 btw? I have seen that 3ball poster use it frequently. And now the OP. [/QUOTE]

OP may be 1-9ball. He is echoing him a lot but I have seen that account echo "LostCause" too, who some thought was an alt of Soundwave. For all the flack 1-9ball gets (deservedly so), it is hard to tell who is who because 90% of MJ stans here say the same basic stuff.

WS/48 is a tool used to diminish Pippen because Kukoc was ahead of him in WS/48 a few times and I think Grant once. I think it was Kuniva who ripped 1-9ball badly over that by explaining you can't use WS/48 to compare a bench player to a starter. They keep running into trouble with their TP.

Kukoc WS/48:

1994-95 NBA .185 (12th)
1995-96 NBA .231 (6th)
1996-97 NBA .204 (8th)

Grant WS/48:

1990-91 NBA .188 (13th)
1991-92 NBA .237 (3rd)
1993-94 NBA .188 (11th)
1994-95 NBA .169 (20th)

See the problem? WS/48 tells you Grant was a top 3 player and Kukoc was right outside the top 5 in 6th.

As to Pippen, not exactly a slouch in WS/48 but they cherry pick. Here it is for Pippen:

1990-91 NBA .179 (15th)
1991-92 NBA .192 (12th)
1993-94 NBA .194 (9th)
1994-95 NBA .188 (10th)
1995-96 NBA .209 (9th)
1996-97 NBA .203 (9th)
1997-98 NBA .193 (8th)

So he was top 10 five years in a row--and he was playing heavy minutes, which impacts your "per minute" production.

So their favorite WS/48 stat says: Grant was top 3 at his peak, Kukoc 6th at his peak and top 10 multiple times, Pippen was perennially top 10 for almost all his prime. What will their response be? You know the deal: tap dancing away from WS/48--until the next thread when they pull the same BS until someone calls them out.

oRTG is geared towards low volume dunkers or sharpshooters. Just look at who is at the top of oRTG this year. Hence why a guy like Grant is so high or a guy like Kerr could rank 3rd (w/out MJ in 94').

They don't try to understand stats, how they are calculated. Just cherry pick.

Whenever the plus/minus numbers are posted they fail to generate a response because Pippen crushes their darlings like Ewing, Miller in that.

[QUOTE=Insidious]Maybe they do know all of this like you are saying, and are just here to create their own reality. Whatever the case being it is cult-like.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, they are here to construct an alternate reality and they have some success with it. It is now accepted the Bulls had weak offensive teammates and Pippen himself was a weak offensive player. That the Bulls were top 10 in offense w/out MJ in 95' (8th in 86'--probably more like 6th in the non-MJ games BTW) or 5th of the 16 teams in playoff offense in 94' is ignored and erased.

It is a shame. Jordan took a top 10 offense and made it GOAT level--but that isn't enough for MJ stans. They have to exaggerate.

The irony? When Pippen was out for half a year, the Bulls were #13 in offense in 98'. :lol The Bulls proved they could have a top 10 offense with Pippen, w/out Jordan--but not the other way around. An absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence but it is an ironic and amusing fact, given their narrative...

Do Pippen, Kukoc, BJ, Grant, et al. get the 5-6 PPG boost in today's NBA that MJ stans were arguing for in the Miller thread? Let me guess: nope. :lol We have seen this raised with Pippen and Kukoc. The MJ stan response is their stats would be equal--or even lower (since Pippen would be Iggy and if Pippen is Iggy, Kukoc is probably a 9th man or something, right?)--in today's NBA.

Suddenly 90's stats can be compared straight up to today's stats.
They have no actual beliefs whatsoever, just careening from topic to topic and winging it based on a momentary agenda...if they had actual beliefs, you would have to say the stats in the OP would be boosted for these players with the extra PPG and associated extra efficiency and extra APG they would have in today's NBA.

WS/48 is a stat that is pegged to the team's number of wins, so it's the perfect stat to compare teammates, and less effective comparing players on different teams that have different wins

And lol at roundball.. this thread destroys him.. Pippen sucked... Not a top 100 offensive player

[QUOTE=3ball;14110984]WS/48 is a stat that is pegged to the team's number of wins, so it's the perfect stat to compare teammates, and less effective comparing players on different teams that have different wins

And lol at roundball.. this thread destroys him.. Pippen sucked... Not a top 100 offensive player[/QUOTE]

Alright you just went against goozemans argument. If you can’t compare different players on different teams you cant compare Jordan’s teammates to lebrons teammates using ws/48..,

Again if your point is Jordan mattered more than pippen, that’s basic knowledge but the same for lebron vs wade or Kyrie outside 2011

[QUOTE=NBAGOAT;14110989]Alright you just went against goozemans argument. [B] If you can’t compare different players on different teams you cant compare Jordan’s teammates to lebrons teammates using ws/48..,[/B]

Again if your point is Jordan mattered more than pippen, that’s basic knowledge but the same for lebron vs wade or Kyrie outside 2011[/QUOTE]

Which either negates the OP or makes 3ball retract his cosign. Haha embarrassing. Logic says that you read up and understand the numbers [U]before[/U] applying them. Unfortunately common sense is lost on these people. Roundball had them pegged from the getgo.

[QUOTE=NBAGOAT;14110989]Alright you just went against goozemans argument. If you can’t compare different players on different teams you cant compare Jordan’s teammates to lebrons teammates using ws/48..,[/QUOTE]

This is what I mean. These guys are all over the map careening from TP to TP based on the agenda at a given moment--even if they will say the opposite an hour later or the next day with another agenda in another context (e.g., saying 90's players would score 5-6 PPG more easily today--but not applying that to MJ's teammates).

They don't want to use any form of data, other than cherry picked specific data. WS are tied to wins, but that means we can't compare WS for the Bulls to anyone's because they had no comparable team in the 90's. Ironically, because the Bulls were the super team MJ stans like him swear they weren't, their argument is we can't use WS as a comp.

I agree. WS isn't a good stat--but I used it simply because MJ stans like to bring it up.

We can go all day, pick the stat. We know Pippen over and over again ranks at near the top. Here are some more in easy to grasp graphics for 1-9ball and his minions:

[IMG]https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Ewing-player-card.png[/IMG]

[IMG]https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Pippen-GOAT-card.png[/IMG]

Not stat is the be all end all but when every advanced stat, advanced plus/minus, etc. all tell us the same thing that should mean something to people who throw around stats day in, day out.

[QUOTE=3ball;14110963]What more needs to be said

I might retire because of this post

Look how much more offensive talent lebron played with, yet he never had #1 offenses.. leDumb ball[/QUOTE]

Thanks, man. That's a honor coming from the 3ball, the Jordan-stan legend. Keep posting because it is honestly amusing watching you destroy them constantly. It's funny that they legit think they are winning these arguments no matter how many ways we beat them over the head with the same numbers showing that Pippen was a good player who had a couple of solid seasons as the guy, but he nothing special in the big scheme of things compared to a long list of superior players all-time. Even as a sidekick he was nothing special and many players have won championships with far superior second options. Hell, you could argue some teams won championships with third options better than Pippen (Lakers with Worthy, for example). Fake Pippen-stans always respond the same way, and if you look closely enough off in the distancea you can see the goalposts moving to fit the ever-changing Pippen narrative.

Demar DeJordan got carried by MVPippen, Stern and refs, expansion era, shitty opposition at the SG position and overrated 90s defense

OP - Which of LeBron's teammates were better than Prime Ewing?

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14110981]Do Pippen, Kukoc, BJ, Grant, et al. get the 5-6 PPG boost in today's NBA that MJ stans were arguing for in the Miller thread? [/QUOTE]

MJ stans still dodging their shameless hypocrisy. :lol

[QUOTE=insidious301;14111193]OP - Which of LeBron's teammates were better than Prime Ewing?[/QUOTE]

Good line of questioning.

Also, use the same logic in the OP to compare the players on MJ's opponents versus those on LeBron's.

Warriors: Durant, Curry, Klay, Green, Iggy
Thunder: Durant, Westbrook, Harden
Celtics: Garnett, Pierce, Allen, Rondo
Bulls II: Rose, Gasol, Butler, Noah
Bulls I: Rose, Noah, Deng, Boozer, Korver
Rockets: Harden, Westbrook
Spurs: Duncan, Parker, Kawhi, Manu

Go on down the line. Of course, we know OP won't do that because teams are more stacked today and if you compared rosters from then to today teams with Starks as their second best player or Miller (90's version of Klay) as their best player wouldn't stack up to teams with Westbrook, Pierce, Parker, Curry, Klay, etc. as second options. Look at those teams listed above. What option would Starks be? He would be 4th or 5th on some of these teams. Different eras.

The legit comparison is teams relative to their eras--but we know LeBron's teams sucked without LeBron (unlike MJ's) so we won't see that either from MJ stains.

The biggest comp we hear about player wise in the 90's usually are Malone, Barkley. These guys were forwards. All-NBA voters thought Pippen was better than them in multiple years with both players in their primes. So if Pippen sucked, what does that mean Malone, Barkley, and others like Ewing (never higher than 4th in MVP) and Miller (never higher than 13th, same as Rik Smits that year in MVP), etc.?

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14111215]MJ stans still dodging their shameless hypocrisy. :lol



Good line of questioning.

Also, use the same logic in the OP to compare the players on MJ's opponents versus those on LeBron's.

Warriors: Durant, Curry, Klay, Green, Iggy
Thunder: Durant, Westbrook, Harden
Celtics: Garnett, Pierce, Allen, Rondo
Bulls II: Rose, Gasol, Butler, Noah
Bulls I: Rose, Noah, Deng, Boozer, Korver
Rockets: Harden, Westbrook
Spurs: Duncan, Parker, Kawhi, Manu

Go on down the line. Of course, we know OP won't do that because teams are more stacked today and if you compared rosters from then to today teams with Starks as their second best player or Miller (90's version of Klay) as their best player wouldn't stack up to teams with Westbrook, Pierce, Parker, Curry, Klay, etc. as second options. Look at those teams listed above. What option would Starks be? He would be 4th or 5th on some of these teams. Different eras.

The legit comparison is teams relative to their eras--but we know LeBron's teams sucked without LeBron (unlike MJ's) so we won't see that either from MJ stains.

The biggest comp we hear about player wise in the 90's usually are Malone, Barkley. These guys were forwards. All-NBA voters thought Pippen was better than them in multiple years with both players in their primes. So if Pippen sucked, what does that mean Malone, Barkley, and others like Ewing (never higher than 4th in MVP) and Miller (never higher than 13th, same as Rik Smits that year in MVP), etc.?[/QUOTE]

I wonder if the "[U]gooseman[/U]" will answer my question directly. Lets see how many players were better than the guy who led Jordan's [U]best[/U] comp. I doubt we'll get an answer, because we all know what it entails, and what that'll do to his argument. But I will give him benefit of the doubt.

[QUOTE=Insidious]I wonder if the "gooseman" will answer my question directly. Lets see how many players were better than the guy who led Jordan's best comp. I doubt we'll get an answer, because we all know what it entails, and what that'll do to his argument. But I will give him benefit of the doubt.[/QUOTE]

If that is 1-9ball, he has Ewing 22nd all-time. Not sure where he has Wade. He also has Brandon Ingram as a top 10-12 all-time scorer. As to tpols, he has Ewing>LeBron. :oldlol: tpols isn't "gooseman" but is part of the same ilk. Every MJ stan raves about how great Ewing was.

[QUOTE=tpols]If these clowns dont think he could tack on another 4-5 ppg vs way inferior teams of today with softened rules and amped up spacing what do you think you could possibly say to convince them otherwise?[/QUOTE]

Using that logic...

Pippen 27 PPG
Kukoc 24 PPG
BJ 20 PPG
Grant 20 PPG
Woolridge 30 PPG
Oakley 20 PPG
Cartwright 27 PPG

What do the numbers in the OP adjust to if you give every MJ teammate 5 PPG boosts from their scoring peak? These are just the guys who get to 20+ so it doesn't include guys who move into the high teens with an extra 5 PPG.

Low IQ poster alert :lol

Imagine comparing AD's entire career #s when he hasnt even played 1 full season together lol

Imagine forgetting about the Playoffs

Imagine not comparing LBJ and MJ's playoff career #s. LBJ fam obviously had more HALP despite being less talented than Pippen.

Imagine forgetting all of MJ's rings are 90s trash