Re: Would Bird basically be a slightly shorter Jokic in this era (2017-now).
[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14441800]I think it's safe to say Jokic could have a 10-year prime at a superstar level barring injury.
Idk where he will actually peak since he sucks at defense, but just talking offense he might be the most "skilled" center of all time.[/QUOTE]
Nope, Joker is not even the most skilled big man in his era, Embid is more skilled on both sides of the ball. Kat is very skilled too, Joker is the best passing big in this era for sure.
Re: Would Bird basically be a slightly shorter Jokic in this era (2017-now).
[QUOTE=LeCola;14453267]Bird is only 7 cm shorter than Jokic.
He is 8 cm taller than Draymond.
If he played in this era he could probably play as PF/C.
We can call him:
Jokic with better shooting, scoring, ball handling
Or
Durant with less athleticism but better playmaking, rebounding
[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/rvsNtvC/images-q-tbn-ANd9-Gc-Si-Y5787-V4-Up-F7fhggx-AIFBft-VHVni-Tkf-PQ-usqp-CAU.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Jokic is a far better rebounder and ball handler than Bird. Wtf?
Re: Would Bird basically be a slightly shorter Jokic in this era (2017-now).
[QUOTE=999Guy;14453320]Jokic is a far better rebounder and ball handler than Bird. Wtf?[/QUOTE]
I said
[I]Durant with less athleticism but better playmaking, rebounding
[/I]
It means, I said Bird is better rebounder than Durant.
However, I don't agree that Jokic is not far better rebounder, not sure even better.
Jokic's:
Career average is 9.8.
Highest season is 10.8.
Bird's:
Career average is 10.0
Highest is 11.0
First 5 seasons average is 10.7 (He played PF)
Also, he averaged 15.3 rebounds in 81 finals.
He averaged 12.2 in playoffs in his first 5 seasons with playing 67 playoff games and winning 2 rings.
Re: Would Bird basically be a slightly shorter Jokic in this era (2017-now).
[QUOTE=999Guy;14453320]Jokic is a far better rebounder and ball handler than Bird. Wtf?[/QUOTE]
Birds quicker, more agile and a little more lethal.
Re: Would Bird basically be a slightly shorter Jokic in this era (2017-now).
[QUOTE=LeCola;14453440]I said
[I]Durant with less athleticism but better playmaking, rebounding
[/I]
It means, I said Bird is better rebounder than Durant.
However, I don't agree that Jokic is not far better rebounder, not sure even better.
Jokic's:
Career average is 9.8.
Highest season is 10.8.
Bird's:
Career average is 10.0
Highest is 11.0
First 5 seasons average is 10.7 (He played PF)
Also, he averaged 15.3 rebounds in 81 finals.
He averaged 12.2 in playoffs in his first 5 seasons with playing 67 playoff games and winning 2 rings.[/QUOTE]
You people might literally be 35 years behind making sense on NBA basketball.
I would have to go back in a time machine to not wanna slap the shit out of you for mentioning just raw rebounds to compare different eras.
Re: Would Bird basically be a slightly shorter Jokic in this era (2017-now).
[QUOTE=LeCola;14453267]Bird is only 7 cm shorter than Jokic.
He is 8 cm taller than Draymond.
If he played in this era he could probably play as PF/C.
We can call him:
Jokic with better shooting, scoring, ball handling
Or
Durant with less athleticism but better playmaking, rebounding
[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/rvsNtvC/images-q-tbn-ANd9-Gc-Si-Y5787-V4-Up-F7fhggx-AIFBft-VHVni-Tkf-PQ-usqp-CAU.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
I just noticed Jokic"s standing reach is 9'3. The same as Deandre Ayton who's taller and has a longer wingspan. His standing reach is higher than Giannis' too All that length wasted on low set shoulders. Bird's standing reach is 9'1 which is equal to or taller than most power forwards playing today. Just an inch below Giannis.
Re: Would Bird basically be a slightly shorter Jokic in this era (2017-now).
[QUOTE=theballerFKA Ace;14453541]I just noticed Jokic"s standing reach is 9'3. The same as Deandre Ayton who's taller and has a longer wingspan. His standing reach is higher than Giannis' too All that length wasted on low set shoulders. Bird's standing reach is 9'1 which is equal to or taller than most power forwards playing today. Just an inch below Giannis.[/QUOTE]
There is no way Giannis standing reach is that low. He grew several inches since his official measurements.
Re: Would Bird basically be a slightly shorter Jokic in this era (2017-now).
Jokic passed Larry Bird on the trip-dub list.
Jokic is also putting up an absurd 39.4/20.8/10.5 PER 100 Possessions this year so far. Dude is so damn underrated and already one of the best offensive players we've ever seen.
Re: Would Bird basically be a slightly shorter Jokic in this era (2017-now).
Jokic is too good man. Easily most underrated player in the league right now.
Re: Would Bird basically be a slightly shorter Jokic in this era (2017-now).
Bird had far quicker release and superior jumpshooter, while also having superior quickness and handle
And Jokic's passing is based on being able to catch the ball on the high post and just WAIT....... the spacing keeps help defenders far away so he has time to wait.... and the spacing also also means that someone will be open if you wait long enough
this doesn't compare to Bird passing quickly and threading needles in a no-spacing environment where quick passes were required due to closer help defenders (no time to stand and wait)
Re: Would Bird basically be a slightly shorter Jokic in this era (2017-now).
[QUOTE=3ba11;14551811]Bird had far quicker release and superior jumpshooter, while also having superior quickness and handle
And Jokic's passing is based on being able to catch the ball on the high post and just WAIT....... the spacing keeps help defenders far away so he has time to wait.... and the spacing also also means that someone will be open if you wait long enough
this doesn't compare to Bird passing quickly and threading needles in a no-spacing environment where quick passes were required due to closer help defenders (no time to stand and wait)[/QUOTE]
Nah
Re: Would Bird basically be a slightly shorter Jokic in this era (2017-now).
[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14551821]Nah[/QUOTE]
Today's spacing is too much for defenders to cover, so someone is always open if you wait long enough
So anyone can catch the ball in the high post and wait until someone gets open. (beginner format)
Otoh, help defenders were standing right next to Bird in previous eras (no spacing), so there was no time to wait and no one was going to be open.. Bird had to thread needles and make QUICK decisions (no spacing) - therefore, he was a far superior passer
Re: Would Bird basically be a slightly shorter Jokic in this era (2017-now).
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14441743]That seems like an incredibly flawed way to look at things
Per 100 Possessions
'21 Embiid: 44/16/4 121 ORTG 30.3 PER, 64%TS, 7.2 BPM
'00 Shaq: 38/18/5 115 ORTG 30.6 PER, 58%TS, 9.3 BPM
'94 Hakeem: 34/14/4 109 ORTG 25.3 PER, 57%TS, 6.8 BPM
This would suggest Embiid was better than 2 of the greatest peaks ever last season[/QUOTE]
I responded to this post a while back, and want to respond again. You could argue Embiid is underrated a big (of course maybe it's this recent era).
Embiid is posting similar numbers to his 2021 season. This year he is 45/17/6.5 PER 100 POSS. 45 points per 100 possessions is crazy.
Basically Embiid gets to the free throw line at an absurd rate and it helps him have the highest scoring rate per minute (might have to check again but I believe he is ahead of MJ).
Embiid and Jokic are having insane years, best Center battle in a long time.
Re: Would Bird basically be a slightly shorter Jokic in this era (2017-now).
Offensively, Joker is the MOST SKILLED center ever. Scoring skillset, passing, and handles as a package. That's his mark! If we are talking most skilled on BOTH SIDES of the court, I would go with Embid. I used to go with The Dream for that. But with the way Embid uses the three as a weapon AND his handles, I think Joel has that crown. And if we are talking most skilled SCORER ever among centers, Embid, KAT, and Joker are LIKELY the top three ever in that regard. IN some type of order. The handles and three ball shooting they have ADDED to the center spot have set them apart. I'm NOT SAYING they are better players than a Shaq, Dream, Kareem, or Wilt. BUT they are gonna knock A LOT of the other legendary centers out of their spots on a peak-prime level. And GOAT wise, we gotta see the resumes the accumulate.
Re: Would Bird basically be a slightly shorter Jokic in this era (2017-now).
[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14558881]I responded to this post a while back, and want to respond again. You could argue Embiid is underrated a big (of course maybe it's this recent era).
Embiid is posting similar numbers to his 2021 season. This year he is 45/17/6.5 PER 100 POSS. 45 points per 100 possessions is crazy.
Basically Embiid gets to the free throw line at an absurd rate and it helps him have the highest scoring rate per minute (might have to check again but I believe he is ahead of MJ).
Embiid and Jokic are having insane years, best Center battle in a long time.[/QUOTE]
ABSOLUTELY! The way it's looking peak-prime wise, the ONLY CENTERS I would take over them are Shaq, Wilt, Kareem,and The Dream. That's the way this thing is starting to look with those two. And even in comparison to those four, the way they can shoot from deep and handle the rock WHILE maintaining old school center type values is AMAZING to watch! Especially at the size those guys are.
