so your team blows a 20pt lead in a game7 and it's not the best player's fault?

[QUOTE=fourkicks44;14913005]It just shows a lack of IQ when there is no strong argument against Jokic's criticisms so you have to roll out "the greatest hits" and talk about Embiid who at this time, has nothing to do with the argument at hand.

Seems like Mask has ruffled some feathers and reduced posters to immature games because they can't articulate arguments.[/QUOTE]

People see victories in others' defeats. Has been this way for a very long time. You can criticize every player and you will be right. All of them have holes in their games. I'm a lot more into looking for the good stuff. So I credit Minnesota's management and their players' heart. Came up with a good plan and had enough in the tank to win the fight. Jokic played noticeably worse this season than last. It was visible in the regular season and it became more apparent in the playoffs. He still had the best efficiency and a rounded 29/13/9 for the playoffs on 55% shooting. Very respectable but not at the level he was at last year. Had he played as well as he did a year ago, the Nuggets would've won this series.

But it is all good. Rest of the games shall be interesting and we will see what happens next year and further down the road.

This isn't even Mask's thread. It's highwhey's.

[QUOTE=fourkicks44;14913013]This isn't even Mask's thread. It's highwhey's.[/QUOTE]

:oldlol:

but but but

First off, it’s a team game. The credit and the fault goes to the team, not to any individual.

Here are the main issues I saw: with everything on the line, there was a complete lack of trust in Denver’s bench. Maybe this was warranted, but it made fatigue a greater factor against a younger, more athletic, and less dinged up team.

The direct result of this is that MN did a much better job in the second half at forcing turnovers and hitting the offensive glass. I haven’t looked at the numbers, but I don’t need to to know that MN had a huge second half advantage in second chance points.

Also, there is a question of complacency. Throughout the season, the Nuggets have not been the type of team to put their foot on the other teams throat and just killing them. They seemed way too confident in their ability to execute in the clutch. That came back to bite them.

What would I blame Jokic for? He needed to dominate the defensive glass in the second half the way he did in the first. If he had done that, Denver would have won.

The thing I really hate about this individual focused, whose to blame, mentality is that it takes credit away from Minnesota. They outplayed Denver in a very odd series, and over this stretch they were the better team. They did it with tremendous team defense. It was not a case of Ant beat Jokic, and the people who cast it that way are idiots.

[QUOTE=fourkicks44;14913013]This isn't even Mask's thread. It's highwhey's.[/QUOTE]

Yes, and look at the original post and the first response. Do they strike you as "articulate arguments"?

It definitely showed that he has some weaknesses in his game. He's not a good defender nor a great 3PT shooter. They were leaving him open from 3 and he settled for those. Obviously you could be reasonable and say that he had nothing left in the tank, and that the coach should have rested him when they had a big lead before Minny made their run, but his lack of athleticism is definitely something that's a negative in his game if we're gonna try to compare him to the GOATs.

[QUOTE=Duffy Pratt;14913018]First off, it’s a team game. The credit and the fault goes to the team, not to any individual.

Here are the main issues I saw: with everything on the line, there was a complete lack of trust in Denver’s bench. Maybe this was warranted, but it made fatigue a greater factor against a younger, more athletic, and less dinged up team.

The direct result of this is that MN did a much better job in the second half at forcing turnovers and hitting the offensive glass. I haven’t looked at the numbers, but I don’t need to to know that MN had a huge second half advantage in second chance points.

Also, there is a question of complacency. Throughout the season, the Nuggets have not been the type of team to put their foot on the other teams throat and just killing them. They seemed way too confident in their ability to execute in the clutch. That came back to bite them.

What would I blame Jokic for? He needed to dominate the defensive glass in the second half the way he did in the first. If he had done that, Denver would have won.

The thing I really hate about this individual focused, whose to blame, mentality is that it takes credit away from Minnesota. They outplayed Denver in a very odd series, and over this stretch they were the better team. They did it with tremendous team defense. It was not a case of Ant beat Jokic, and the people who cast it that way are idiots.[/QUOTE]

Before the game I said multiple times that for Denver to win, Jokic needs to have a big rebounding game with 10+ assists. In the first half he had 15 and 5, and Denver was comfortably winning. In the game thread (3rdQ) I mentioned that the rebounding game is now in the Wolves' favor and it's not looking good. Jokic had 4 rebounds in the second half but it was more like 2. The last two came with the game out of reach. And he couldn't have assists as nobody was shooting well (him included). So the result is not surprising to me. Minnesota had more quality personnel at their disposal and it showed. Was a good game.

[QUOTE=elementally morale;14913023]Before the game I said multiple times that for Denver to win, Jokic needs to have a big rebounding game with 10+ assists. In the first half he had 15 and 5, and Denver was comfortably winning. In the game thread (3rdQ) I mentioned that the rebounding game is now in the Wolves' favor and it's not looking good. Jokic had 4 rebounds in the second half but it was more like 2. The last two came with the game out of reach. And he couldn't have assists as nobody was shooting well (him included). So the result is not surprising to me. Minnesota had more quality personnel at their disposal and it showed. Was a good game.[/QUOTE]

let me ask you a serious question: what do you value more? rebounds or defense?

jokic stays still while opponents blow past him for a layup/shot, but at least he collects rebounds if they miss. that's why he can grab so many rebounds.

but it is more effective than actually trying to contest the shot and collecting the legitimate rebound?

[QUOTE=highwhey;14913051]let me ask you a serious question: what do you value more? rebounds or defense?

jokic stays still while opponents blow past him for a layup/shot, but at least he collects rebounds if they miss. that's why he can grab so many rebounds.

but it is more effective than actually trying to contest the shot and collecting the legitimate rebound?[/QUOTE]

In Jokic' case, rebounds. He is a good team defender and a not good enough individual defender. This will not change much and it was not possible to change it last night. But all those second chance points the Wolves got cost the Nuggets the game. In general, a great defender is better to have, but Jokic will never be a great defender. His defensive impact is not bad at all, but individually... no. So he has to come up with the hustle stats on defense: steals, deflections, the occasional block and securing rebounds either via boxing out or directly grabbing them. It would sure be nice if Jokic would become Hakeem on defense but it's not realistic. Him having kept up his first half rebounding impact was not out of the question.

[QUOTE=highwhey;14913051]let me ask you a serious question: what do you value more? rebounds or defense?

jokic stays still while opponents blow past him for a layup/shot, but at least he collects rebounds if they miss. that's why he can grab so many rebounds.

but it is more effective than actually trying to contest the shot and collecting the legitimate rebound?[/QUOTE]


For most of the year (and the past few years), if he had tried to do what you are asking, he would be spending a lot of time sitting in foul trouble. It was just too easy for drivers to throw their bodies or hands into someone and get a cheap foul call on a contest. Maybe not so much since the all star break. Jokic simply doesn’t have the ability like Peyton Watson (or AD) to swat a ball away at the top of the arc.

That said, your picture of what he does is a vast oversimplification and ignores what actually occurs in games. He doesn’t simply hope to get the rebounds on misses where guys have blown by him. And his presence in the lane often has a deterrent effect on potential drivers. All you need to do is watch a few games to see this is true. That said, down the stretch last night they needed defensive rebounding, badly. In the 4th, they got 5 defensive rebounds, and the Wolves got 5 offensive rebounds, and had 10 points off of them. And that doesn’t even get into what that kind of rebounding does for a team’s energy.

[QUOTE=elementally morale;14913060]In Jokic' case, rebounds. He is a good team defender and a not good enough individual defender. This will not change much and it was not possible to change it last night. But all those second chance points the Wolves got cost the Nuggets the game. In general, a great defender is better to have, but Jokic will never be a great defender. His defensive impact is not bad at all, but individually... no. So he has to come up with the hustle stats on defense: steals, deflections, the occasional block and securing rebounds either via boxing out or directly grabbing them. [B]It would sure be nice if Jokic would become Hakeem on defense but it's not realistic.[/B] Him having kept up his first half rebounding impact was not out of the question.[/QUOTE]

:facepalm not even asking for DPOY effort, just...any effort on that end. because standing around like a traffic cone hurts your team. especially if you happen to be the center of said team.

[QUOTE=highwhey;14913063]:facepalm not even asking for DPOY effort, just...any effort on that end. because standing around like a traffic cone hurts your team. especially if you happen to be the center of said team.[/QUOTE]

I probably think of of him as a better defender than you do (all things considered I think he is average+) but it is besides the point. Had he kept up what he was able to do in the 1st half, would've resulted in a win. That was realistic to expect. So in this particular case, his rebounding was missed a lot more. I had some problems with his play last night but it's things he is capable of doing differently.

[QUOTE=elementally morale;14913067]I probably think of of him as a better defender than you do (all things considered I think he is average+) but it is besides the point. Had he kept up what he was able to do in the 1st half, would've resulted in a win. That was realistic to expect. So in this particular case, his rebounding was missed a lot more. I had some problems with his play last night but it's things he is capable of doing differently.[/QUOTE]

It isn't that realistic given that he played 47 minutes.

[QUOTE=elementally morale;14913067]I probably think of of him as a better defender than you do (all things considered I think he is average+) but it is besides the point. Had he kept up what he was able to do in the 1st half, would've resulted in a win. That was realistic to expect. So in this particular case, his rebounding was missed a lot more. I had some problems with his play last night but it's things he is capable of doing differently.[/QUOTE]

[video=youtube;IHTvqrEOVg4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHTvqrEOVg4[/video]

i ask that you dedicate 9 minutes to watching this video and point out where his average+ defense is at. thank you.

[QUOTE=highwhey;14913072]i ask that you dedicate 9 minutes to watching this video and point out where his average+ defense is at. thank you.[/QUOTE]

I saw almost every game he played the last 4-5 years. I've seen him play more than you have, I think. So I'm aware of his limitations. You asked a 'serious' question to which I gave an honest answer. He became a lot better on defense in the past 2 years. Still a tad below average individual defender but with a very good understanding of team defense (lost of deflections, rarely getting lost, etc.) We may disagree on his defensive impact. Even if we do, him becoming a lot better than he is all of a sudden is not realistic. He wasn't a better defender last year when the Nuggets won it all. And he wasn't defending better in the 1st half of game 7 when they were up 15. Something else was missing. Shot making and rebounding. All in all the whole team was worse than last year and it showed in the regular season. Jokic himself was worse than last year, both regular season and playoffs. Even in their wins against the Lakers some of us (including me) kept saying: this team will not win in the 2nd round if things don't change. This loss didn't come out of nowhere.