Lebron couldn't 3-peat with Wade/Bosh/Allen, while MJ three-peated with just Pippen

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14920165]Wonder why this thread isn’t deleted or OP isn’t banned for repeating a generic thread for the 300th time. Care to shed some light?[/QUOTE]
You all like replying to trolls like 3Ball and scarface so I have been told to tolerate idiocy.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14920192]You all like replying to trolls like 3Ball and scarface so I have been told to tolerate idiocy.[/QUOTE]
Didn't you permaban bawler? Not that I'm complaining just saying :lol

.
[U]Regular Season[/U]

[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hawkihe01.html]HERSEY HAWKINS[/url].......... 14.7.... 3.6.... 2.9... 1.7... 0.3... 59 TS... 16.3 PER... 2.0 BPM... 0.144 WS.48
[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/terryja01.html]JASON TERRY[/url]................. 13.4.... 2.3.... 3.8... 1.1... 0.2... 55 TS... 16.2 PER... 1.5 BPM... 0.116 WS.48.


[U]Playoffs[/U]

[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hawkihe01.html]HERSEY HAWKINS[/url].......... 14.1.... 3.6.... 2.9... 1.6... 0.3... 61 TS... 16.6 PER... 3.8 BPM... 0.144 WS.48
[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/terryja01.html]JASON TERRY[/url]................. 14.1.... 2.5.... 3.0... 0.9... 0.2... 56 TS... 14.9 PER... 1.7 BPM... 0.096 WS.48



[QUOTE=Axe;14920189]Meltdown. Always moving the goal posts like the big sore loser you are lol.[/QUOTE]


okay i'll be more direct... Postseason net efficiency means nothing because each team plays a different set of opponents... So the 96' Sonics didn't face the cupcakes that the 11 Mavs faced, hence the vastly lower net efficiency.. Net efficiency represents opponent strength just as much as it measures the team's strength.. Obviously, the 96' Sonics were far superior to Terry's Mavs because we know that Hersey Hawkins was the Sonics' 4th option and FAR BETTER THAN TERRY - this confirms that the 96' Sonics were better than the 11' Mavs but simply faced long-standing organic juggernauts and opponents that were in their prime compared to the Mavs facing fossils or babies in the Western Playoffs.. Recent years have seen a more top-heavy league and higher net efficiencies than the more evenly-spread talent of prior eras that yielded lower net efficiency.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14920197]Didn't you permaban bawler? Not that I'm complaining just saying :lol[/QUOTE]
Not a permanent one just a bit long. And he crosses lines that 3ball doesn't.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14920210]Not a permanent one just a bit long. And he crosses lines that 3ball doesn't.[/QUOTE]
True 3ball is just annoying and probably not a bad guy.

[QUOTE=Axe;14920160]Speaking of the 98 jazz that scored 54 points in the finals, they also managed to sweep your true idol kobe in the preceding west finals round. :kobe:[/QUOTE]
They also only managed 64 points agaisnt the Spurs in the same run.

[QUOTE=3ba11;14920207].
[U]Regular Season[/U]

[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hawkihe01.html]HERSEY HAWKINS[/url].......... 14.7.... 3.6.... 2.9... 1.7... 0.3... 59 TS... 16.3 PER... 2.0 BPM... 0.144 WS.48
[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/terryja01.html]JASON TERRY[/url]................. 13.4.... 2.3.... 3.8... 1.1... 0.2... 55 TS... 16.2 PER... 1.5 BPM... 0.116 WS.48.


[U]Playoffs[/U]

[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hawkihe01.html]HERSEY HAWKINS[/url].......... 14.1.... 3.6.... 2.9... 1.6... 0.3... 61 TS... 16.6 PER... 3.8 BPM... 0.144 WS.48
[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/terryja01.html]JASON TERRY[/url]................. 14.1.... 2.5.... 3.0... 0.9... 0.2... 56 TS... 14.9 PER... 1.7 BPM... 0.096 WS.48






okay i'll be more direct... Postseason net efficiency means nothing because each team plays a different set of opponents... So the 96' Sonics didn't face the cupcakes that the 11 Mavs faced, hence the vastly lower net efficiency.. Net efficiency represents opponent strength just as much as it measures the team's strength.. Obviously, the 96' Sonics were far superior to Terry's Mavs because we know that Hersey Hawkins was the Sonics' 4th option and FAR BETTER THAN TERRY - this confirms that the 96' Sonics were better than the 11' Mavs but simply faced long-standing organic juggernauts and opponents that were in their prime compared to the Mavs facing fossils or babies in the Western Playoffs.. Recent years have seen a more top-heavy league and higher net efficiencies than the more evenly-spread talent of prior eras that yielded lower net efficiency.[/QUOTE]

The difference is the 11 Mavs had a legit bonafide all time great leading them in Dirk with a great cast fit around him. The 96 Sonics had no such great player leading them, instead they had groups of players at similar levels. Payton and Kemp would both be #2's in Lebron's era. And their supporting cast was kinda like a plateau of decently skilled role players. They killed the Rockets during that era because Olajuwon didn't have as strong a cast as Payton and Kemp had yet. Mj didn't really have to face that top level of star like him much and when he did his team almost always had the most help/talent.

.
[U]Regular Season[/U]

[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html]Hornacek[/url]'.... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp on 33,964 min.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts
[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html]Klay[/url]............ 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp on 20,380 min.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts


[U]Playoffs[/U]

[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html]Hornacek[/url]'.... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp on 4766 min.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts
[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html]Klay[/url]............ 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp on 4570 min.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts



[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;14920214]

The difference is the 11 Mavs had a legit bonafide all time great leading them in Dirk

[B]with a great cast fit around him.
[/B]

[/quote]


That's where you're just making something up to suit what you want, but the historical record shows that's false - Dirk had Jason Terry at 2nd option, who was far worse than the Sonics' 4th option in 96', Hersey Hawkins..

So Dirk didn't have a good on-paper talent around him, but his skillset allowed the development of great chemistry, which allows a great-performing cast over time, aka great team.. Otoh the ball-dominant or "down-hill" skillset imposes spot-up roles and isn't 5-man basketball, so it can't develop chemistry and must rely on talent (more help), aka talent-based winning..

Accordingly, high-scoring ball-dominators like Lebron, Luka, SGA, Westbrook and Harden never really learned effective basketball (chemistry).



[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;14920214]

[B]Payton and Kemp would both be #2's in Lebron's era.
[/B]

[/quote]


in 1998, Kemp led Zydrunas Illgauskas to the Playoffs, while the all-star version of Zydrunas missed the playoffs with Lebron in 04' and 05...

Furthermore, Kemp averaged 26/10 on 57 TS against the Pacers in those playoffs, which destroys Pippen's 16.6 on 46 TS against the same Pacers later in the playoffs.. That's a clear-cut difference between a 1st option (Kemp) and a 2nd option (Pippen).. Kemp also destroyed Pippen in the 96' Finals and took FMVP votes from MJ.

The only reason Kemp and Payton didn't average 25+ with the Sonics is because the Sonics were completely stacked with four or five 20-point scorers, such as Hersey Hawkins at 4th option (Barkley's old sidekick in Philly)... It's no different than the 80's Lakers where guys like Kareem and Worthy would barely average 20 ppg because the team had so many scorers.. I'm not comparing the 96' Sonics to the 80's Lakers except to say that Payton/Kemp couldn't average 25+ because there were a lot of other scorers to share the ball with, which is common on many contenders.. Payton did average 24/7/9 and have his best season in 2000 when Kemp was gone, so that's the "modern" era by many people's standards.

Btw, Kemp was built like a guard but simply born in the wrong era - his guard build was strong enough to easily average 20/10 in the big man era but in today's game, he would basically be Giannis.




[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;14920214]

Mj didn't really have to face that top level of star like him much and when he did his team almost always had the most help/talent.


[/quote]


A few elite-scoring stars that MJ beat include Dominique, Malone, Drexler, Barkley, Ewing, Shaq, Grant Hill and Penny.... and Worthy was an elite scorer but didn't average 25-30 until the playoffs because of his team's stackedness (i.e. 31 on 62% in 87' WCF and many other series... 25 on 50% for the 87' title run and other title runs.. FMVP in 88', etc).

[I]Of course Penny had Shaq, so that's more help than MJ had, while Barkley joined a perennial WCF team - that's more help than MJ had too... The Pistons had 3x all-stars at every starting spot, while Drexler had an all-star team too and multiple HOF's coming off the bench.. Of course Worthy had Magic and 3 guys that were better than Horace (Vlade, Perkins, AC Green)... and Byron Scott > Paxson.[/I]

And in the 90's, literally everyone thought that arguably the goat floor-general and all-time assist and steals leader was better than Pippen.. Only in the last 10 years has Pippen crept ahead of Stockton as Klutch Sports narratives creep into the airwaves.. Stockton was considered better than Pippen, while Hornacek was considered better than Horace.

You have an amazing habit of just making up whatever you want to believe even if it flies in the face of the historical record.. lol.. carry on

[QUOTE=3ba11;14920277].
[U]Regular Season[/U]

[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html]Hornacek[/url]'.... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp on 33,964 min.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts
[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html]Klay[/url]............ 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp on 20,380 min.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts


[U]Playoffs[/U]

[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html]Hornacek[/url]'.... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp on 4766 min.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts
[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html]Klay[/url]............ 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp on 4570 min.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts






That's where you're just making something up to suit what you want, but the historical record shows that's false - Dirk had Jason Terry at 2nd option, who was far worse than the Sonics' 4th option in 96', Hersey Hawkins..

So Dirk didn't have a good on-paper talent around him, but his skillset allowed the development of great chemistry, which allows a great-performing cast over time, aka great team.. Otoh the ball-dominant or "down-hill" skillset imposes spot-up roles and isn't 5-man basketball, so it can't develop chemistry and must rely on talent (more help), aka talent-based winning..

Accordingly, high-scoring ball-dominators like Lebron, Luka, SGA, Westbrook and Harden never really learned effective basketball (chemistry).






in 1998, Kemp led Zydrunas Illgauskas to the Playoffs, while the all-star version of Zydrunas missed the playoffs with Lebron in 04' and 05...

Furthermore, Kemp averaged 26/10 on 57 TS against the Pacers in those playoffs, which destroys Pippen's 16.6 on 46 TS against the same Pacers later in the playoffs.. That's a clear-cut difference between a 1st option (Kemp) and a 2nd option (Pippen).. Kemp also destroyed Pippen in the 96' Finals and took FMVP votes from MJ.

The only reason Kemp and Payton didn't average 25+ with the Sonics is because the Sonics were completely stacked with four or five 20-point scorers, such as Hersey Hawkins at 4th option (Barkley's old sidekick in Philly)... It's no different than the 80's Lakers where guys like Kareem and Worthy would barely average 20 ppg because the team had so many scorers.. I'm not comparing the 96' Sonics to the 80's Lakers except to say that Payton/Kemp couldn't average 25+ because there were a lot of other scorers to share the ball with, which is common on many contenders.. Payton did average 24/7/9 and have his best season in 2000 when Kemp was gone, so that's the "modern" era by many people's standards.

Btw, Kemp was built like a guard but simply born in the wrong era - his guard build was strong enough to easily average 20/10 in the big man era but in today's game, he would basically be Giannis.







A few elite-scoring stars that MJ beat include Dominique, Malone, Drexler, Barkley, Ewing, Shaq, Grant Hill and Penny.... and Worthy was an elite scorer but didn't average 25-30 until the playoffs because of his team's stackedness (i.e. 31 on 62% in 87' WCF and many other series... 25 on 50% for the 87' title run and other title runs.. FMVP in 88', etc).

[I]Of course Penny had Shaq, so that's more help than MJ had, while Barkley joined a perennial WCF team - that's more help than MJ had too... The Pistons had 3x all-stars at every starting spot, while Drexler had an all-star team too and multiple HOF's coming off the bench.. Of course Worthy had Magic and 3 guys that were better than Horace (Vlade, Perkins, AC Green)... and Byron Scott > Paxson.[/I]

And in the 90's, literally everyone thought that arguably the goat floor-general and all-time assist and steals leader was better than Pippen.. Only in the last 10 years has Pippen crept ahead of Stockton as Klutch Sports narratives creep into the airwaves.. Stockton was considered better than Pippen, while Hornacek was considered better than Horace.

You have an amazing habit of just making up whatever you want to believe even if it flies in the face of the historical record.. lol.. carry on[/QUOTE]
1-9

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14920165]Wonder why this thread isn’t deleted or OP isn’t banned for repeating a generic thread for the 300th time. Care to shed some light?[/QUOTE]

Because he's a mod alt. You or I doing this dumb shit would be on the perma-ban list years ago. The better question is why do people continue to engage with this tired shtick?! Every single reply to this moron including the 1-9 responses just prompts him to keep it going.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14920324]Because he's a mod alt. You or I doing this dumb shit would be on the perma-ban list years ago. The better question is why do people continue to engage with this tired shtick?! Every single reply to this moron including the 1-9 responses just prompts him to keep it going.[/QUOTE]


You guys are the ones making stuff up - sdot didn't give 1-9 response so I responded thoroughly, and of course he ran so south beach responded with 1-9, which I haven't and generally don't respond to..

[QUOTE=3ba11;14920880]You guys are the ones making stuff up - sdot didn't give 1-9 response so I responded thoroughly, and of course he ran so south beach responded with 1-9, which I haven't and generally don't respond to..[/QUOTE]

1-9. You can now add me to the list of those you don't reply to, thanks.